Israel at war

Frankfooter

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mandrill

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People here have championed for Israel to kill more Gazans and argued that Hamas needs to give in first. I said they are a terrorist organization and that it's unreasonable to expect them to give in. People asked me what my view was, and I think that's fair of them. It's unfair of me to criticize other people's views if I don't offer my own. So I did.

I think it is less insane to expect Israel to be reasonable than it is to expect terrorists to be reasonable. Neither will happen in my life time. But at the very least, I'm not championing for a bigger and bigger and bigger bodycount only for the status quo to be maintained. Yes, my proposal is almost as unlikely as theirs, but at least it isn't cheering for more dead civilians and at least I'm not expecting terrorists who have only ever committed war crimes by killing civilians to be reasonable people. All I'm offering is an alternative to hope for rather than killing more civilians to achieve nothing different from the status quo.
Your post is way too much for me to respond to, aside from noting that what you claim are my rhetorical "riddles" were actually genuine informational questions.

But let me concentrate on one salient point. NO COUNTRY is going to let a terrorist organization which just attacked it get away with keeping the hostages and repeating the action next week. When 9/11 happened, the US essentially trashed the Middle East for the next decade and did much dumb stuff. Israel is far more focused.

Not responding with overwhelming force to a terrorist attack will be perceived as weak and will achieve nothing. HAMAS will simply repeat the attack next month, by which time Natanyahu would be out of power and probably assassinated by Israelis. You cannot negotiate or "play nice" with terrorists; you have to destroy them.

And if they render that difficult by using human shields, you cannot let that deter your operations. Because it is far too easy for HAMAS to commit its own war crimes and then claim immunity under international law by setting up its HQ in a hospital and surrounding itself with 100's of civilians.

While I understand the war crime / proportionality argument, it is very easy to "create" an inevitable war crime simply by doing exactly what HAMAS is doing. And that's my necessity argument. I'm sorry I put it in quotes and confused you. Necessity is a legal argument where one chooses the lesser of 2 evils. I added "dire" for flourish.

HAMAS could attack Israel every week from now to eternity - or as long as it has Iranian rockets to fire. Clearly the game has changed radically and suddenly in the ME. Israel has a right of self defence.
 

Frankfooter

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But let me concentrate on one salient point. NO COUNTRY is going to let a terrorist organization which just attacked it get away with keeping the hostages and repeating the action next week. When 9/11 happened, the US essentially trashed the Middle East for the next decade and did much dumb stuff. Israel is far more focused.
Hamas offered to trade hostages weeks ago.
Israel is now a terrorist country through targeting civilians.
That logic now fails.

Not responding with overwhelming force to a terrorist attack will be perceived as weak and will achieve nothing. HAMAS will simply repeat the attack next month, by which time Natanyahu would be out of power and probably assassinated by Israelis. You cannot negotiate or "play nice" with terrorists; you have to destroy them.
The IRA were not defeated through killing them but through negotiations.
Netanyahu deserves to rot for the rest of his life in jail as war criminal.

And if they render that difficult by using human shields, you cannot let that deter your operations. Because it is far too easy for HAMAS to commit its own war crimes and then claim immunity under international law by setting up its HQ in a hospital and surrounding itself with 100's of civilians.

While I understand the war crime / proportionality argument, it is very easy to "create" an inevitable war crime simply by doing exactly what HAMAS is doing. And that's my necessity argument. I'm sorry I put it in quotes and confused you. Necessity is a legal argument where one chooses the lesser of 2 evils. I added "dire" for flourish.
Again, if you argue that you should do what Hamas does then you argue that you are a terrorist too.
The lesser of two evils is to ceasefire and end apartheid.
Not genocide and terrorism.

HAMAS could attack Israel every week from now to eternity - or as long as it has Iranian rockets to fire. Clearly the game has changed radically and suddenly in the ME. Israel has a right of self defence.
No, the UN has specifically stated that Israel, as an occupying power, does not have the right to self defence. That is a faulty legal argument, aren't you a lawyer?

This cycle of violence has been going on too long with too many innocent civilians killed on both sides.
End the cycle.
End the occupation and end apartheid.

 
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canada-man

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Jun 16, 2007
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Toronto, Ontario
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You accept IDF propaganda and now defend terrorist attacks on hospitals.

everytime you gaslight and lie about my post i will pull up up your racist, anti-semitic and terror supporting posts


likes to call immigrant women in Canada mail order brides








quoting the Palestinian Centre for Human Right who are linked to the PLPF terrorist organization








quoting btselem an anti-semitic website who was caught hiring holocaust deniers




franky again quoting from btselem who hires holocaust deniers using the anti-semitic term "Jewish Supremacy




racist towards me saying blacks cannot defend israel ignoeing the fact that over 180,000 black people reside in israel which includes 25,000
black americans. quoting jewish voice for peace that supports terrorism and was busted citing neo nazi and white supremacists websites





claiming that black persons cannot support Israel that have over 180,000 black people living there







justifying terrorists attacks against israeli and jewish civilians














supports the anti-jewish vandalizing of a business owned by a Jewish man and making excuses for it







promoting the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the region.







apologist for hamas the terror group






defending the PLFP terror group




refuses to condemn anti-jewish hate crimes commited by anti-jewish gangs







refuses to condemn the anti-semitic attacks on jewish shoppers at a supermaket in Thornhill, Ontario Canada.




franky continues to sink deeper and deeper into anti-jewish terrorism. franky defends a mapping project in Massacheusets
anti-jewish activists create a list of jewish organzations for anti-semitic purposes



more anti-black racism





supports and defend anti-semitic actions at the University of Wisconsin




franky butturt at the definition of anti-semitism because he is one





franky defends a terrorist that was killed in a shootout with the IDF





defends hamas claiming that it is islamophobic to call hamas terrrorists



defending an anti-semitic terror supporting rally




defending a terrorist attack against a security guard(security guards are civilians)



still refuses to condemn hamas





post anti-black racism to deflect rom his support for terrorists and anti-jewish hate crimes



justified the murder of a security guard



franky resorts to slander defending the Fatah organization who admitted that they are a terrorist organization




continue to lie and slander



still lying and slander





still defending hamas



franky saying the intafada(terrorism and against israelis and jews) is resistance



defending a voilent anti-semitic organization "Within our lifetime"




defending hamas again





defending Rabab Abdulhadi, a San Francisco State University associate professor with a history of expressing support for terrorist groups





defending PFLP Terrorist organization



defending the Fatah organization that recently called for terrorist attacks against Israel




Franky defending the terrorists that were killed after shooting at the IDF



Franky defending an anti-jewish hate crime vandalism




citing an anti-semitic, terrorist supporter Sana Saeed




defending terrorist organzation calling themselves the lions den





refusing to condemn anti-jewish hate crimes in New York



Justifying the murder of civilians




franky supports the right of palestinians to commit terrorism against jews and israelis



justifying the killing of Israeli Civilians


franky's continued justification for terrorist attacks





promoting a youtube channel that promotes holocaust denialism, anti-semitic claims of jewish control, the khazaria myth, and terror apologism




franky used an anti-semitic term "Jewish Supremacy" which is used by white supremacists, neo nazis and other anti-jewish types to demonize jews



refusing to condemn an antisemitic grafiti on a Barcelona synagogue

which means he defend hate crime vandalism of synagogues






still refusing to condemn anti-jewish hate crimes in Barcelona and instead post content from CJPME An anti-jewish organization whose members
defaced products in a Jewish Store and claim jews are more loyal to Israel than Canada



evidence of CJPME inciting anti-jewish hate



franky defending terrorists in gaza launching rockets at civilians which are terrorism and war crimes




franky refuse to coondment anti-jewish hate crimes in an Australian University and instead linke to a hamas linked website




Franky refuse to condemn Hezbollah thugs who blasted a Hezebollah song at a Jewish School and instead resort to gaslighting




franky says terrorist supporters targetting jewish children with terrorist music is free speech



franky posting an image promoting terrorism and ethnic cleansing of Jews




franky defends terrorists shooting at a mother driving her kids




franky continues to justify terrorism against civilians driving cars with israeli plates and calling a 15 year old child a militant






franky calling civilian Jews terrorists



supports hamas for launching teror attacks asnd kidnappings on Israelis in october 2023






franky defends the anti-jewish intimidation of a jewish owned restaurant claiming they have ties to the IDF



refuse to condmen death threats against a Jewish Doctor in Mississuagua


franky continues to defend hamas claiming they don't post a threat to Israel



refusing to condemn an anti-jewish hate crime against a jewish store and owner constantly deflecting






franky refusing to condemn anto-jewish hate crimes against a jewish owned store sinking to new lows claiming a poster of israelis kidnapped by Hamas is Israeli slaughter in Gaza



defends anti-jewish graffitti on a Jewish community centre in the Bronx

 

Frankfooter

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Frankfooter

dangling member
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Every Israel supporter should read letters like these.

Dear President Biden,

On Thursday morning, October 26, I woke up to the news of yet another massacre in Gaza.

This time, Israel killed members of my own extended family. The crime scene was Khan Younis refugee camp in the southern part of the Gaza Strip – note, not in the north, but the south, where people were supposed to be safe, according to the Israeli army. An entire residential quarter of the camp where I was born and raised was ruthlessly bombarded and reduced to rubble by apartheid Israel.

People there experienced it as an earthquake. A brutal, man-made earthquake. It ended the journey on earth for 47 souls who have now returned to God. Of them, 36 were direct family and the remainder were people taking shelter in their homes, seeking illusory safety.

Mr Biden, two and a half years ago in a speech at the White House on the occasion of the conviction in the George Floyd trial, you spoke about the common purpose of people who rose up to say that Black Lives Matter, people who cried: “Enough. Enough. Enough of these senseless killings.”

But today, as members of my family are murdered, you refuse to even acknowledge that these senseless killings are happening. Instead, you offer words of encouragement to Israel. Today you say: “More. More. More of these senseless killings.”

And Israel is happy to grant your wish.

When a member of their community is mercilessly killed by the American militarised police forces, Black Americans honour their victims by saying their names out loud. As the Israeli forces – who are kindred in spirit and in arms to their American counterparts – kill my people now, I also want to honour them by saying their names.

Today, Mr Biden, we mourn the loss of my granduncle Nayif Abu Shammala, aged 79, alongside his wife, Fathiya, 76 – both survivors of the Nakba, the ethnic cleansing of Palestine that took place in 1948 to make way for the creation of Israel.

Their village, Beit Daras, about 30km (nearly 20 miles) north of Gaza, was ethnically cleansed and destroyed along with 530 other Palestinian towns and villages. Fathiya and Nayif, like many of the 750,000 refugees of the Nakba, sought refuge in Khan Younis refugee camp, which was supposed to be only temporary until their return home.

Nayif and Fathiya are no longer with us, Mr Biden. They died before they could exercise their UN-guaranteed right to return to their land.

Among the victims of the bombardment were also their three daughters: Aisha, the cutest, most cheerful face in Khan Younis; her sister Dawlat, one of the most beautiful women in my family who had just come back from the United Arab Emirates to visit her family; and Umaima, the youngest sister, along with her daughter Malak. They came to the family home seeking shelter from the constant bombardment.

Four of Nayif and Fathiya’s sons were also killed: Hassan, Mahmoud, Mohammed and Zuhair along with their wives, Fadia, Nima and Easha. Zuhair’s wife survived only because she had gone to another family in the camp to offer condolences for their dead. Among the murdered were also Hassan’s three children: Mohammed, Ismail, and Salma. Nayif and Fatiya’s surviving son, Ibrahim, lost his eldest son, Nayif, named after his grandfather.

Members of the Qedeih family and Allaham family who had also sought shelter in my granduncle’s house were also killed.

As if this was not enough, Mr Biden, the home of my grandaunt was also bombed. Her name was Um Said. She was 92 years old, a survivor of the Nakba, also hailing from Beit Daras.

She lived in her home in Khan Younis with her daughter Najat. Both now find their resting place under the rubble. People tried to pull their bodies out but could not. The adjacent homes of her two sons, Marwan and Asaad, and her daughter Muna were also bombed.

Marwan survived but his wife, Suhaila, and four children – Mohammed, Mahmoud, Aya and Shahd – were killed. Muna also died along with her two sons, Amjad and Mohammed. Asaad; his wife, Imtiyaz; and his son Abdelrahman, a fourth-year medical student, are also gone.

Asaad’s home was wiped out along with his small grocery shop. This was a favourite place for my own son, Aziz, to visit when we would go back to visit our homeland. Asaad was known throughout Khan Younis camp as a gentle soul who sold goods for little money. He kept a thick ledger but often forgot to collect the debts and simply forgave them. Today, Asaad’s beautiful smile, his kindness, his family and his shop have all been taken from us.

When the bombing occurred, many relatives and neighbours were in Asaad’s shop to buy necessities and use its solar energy unit, which he had bought to help people charge their phones and batteries for free. Among the murdered are also Akram, Riman, Beirut, Imad, Niema and others whose names I cannot recall.

Mr Biden, do you believe that the pain of an Israeli mother hurts more than the pain of a Palestinian mother? Is the life of an Israeli child more valuable than the life of a Palestinian child? This is the only explanation that I can find for what you are doing now – encouraging the mass killing of children in Gaza.

When I speak of children, I am referring to real, human children with their own unique faces, names, laughter and dreams. Israel has taken the lives of more than 4,000 children, including babies, with your complicity, Mr Biden; 4,000 beautiful souls have been taken from us.

Among them is my sister’s granddaughter, Julia Abu Hussein, who was just three years old. My nephew Amjad and his wife Rawan took Julia along with my sister Samia’s family to Khan Younis in search of safety. It took them three days to make the journey from their home in the north of Gaza – a trip that would normally take less than 30 minutes. They listened to the Israeli army’s calls to evacuate. But they found no safety.

When the bombardment began, Rawan took Julia into her arms and rushed to the kitchen with the rest of the family. The sheer force of the Israeli bombs damaged our home and shattered the windows. Several pieces of shrapnel got into the house through the broken windows, killing Julia in her mother’s arms and badly injuring her aunt Nagham.

So, Mr Biden, here is a child whose life was taken by the violence of the war machine you wholeheartedly support. Can you imagine that? Can you truly comprehend the magnitude of this and other tragedies? Or are you still intent on questioning whether Israel is guilty of the mass killing of Palestinians?

As I hear of relatives and friends killed every day in Gaza, I struggle to find new ways of describing death – gone, taken, under the rubble, their souls in heaven. Meanwhile, the media is telling me that they either are not dead or that they are dead, but they are terrorists.

Last summer when I visited Gaza, Um Said kindly gave me her embroidered dress. She insisted that I take it back to Canada with me. I am grateful that I did. Today, Um Said also remains under the rubble of her home. Her embroidered dress is all that I have left to remember her by.

Mr Biden, when the history of what is going on today is written, I am confident that you will go down in it as the man who encouraged and enabled the Israeli genocide against the Palestinian people. You will be remembered as a man whose government actively partook in war crimes.

But more importantly, Mr President, as a man who professes his faith in God, what do you say to Him in your prayers to justify the blood on your hands?
 

DinkleMouse

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2022
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Your post is way too much for me to respond to, aside from noting that what you claim are my rhetorical "riddles" were actually genuine informational questions.
You're saying you asked a very specific question about whether the UN got involved in a specific conflict between two specific parties during a specific decade because you didn't know if they did and couldn't find it on Google and just wanted to know if they did and not because you were going to make a point about it?

But let me concentrate on one salient point. NO COUNTRY is going to let a terrorist organization which just attacked it get away with keeping the hostages and repeating the action next week. When 9/11 happened, the US essentially trashed the Middle East for the next decade and did much dumb stuff. Israel is far more focused.
That's your example to justify this? Estimates are that 4.5 million people died in the various conflicts in the wake of 9/11. Has the threat of Islamic terrorism been eliminated? Nope. Has it been reduced? Nope. In fact, there are now more Islamic terror groups and they're bigger.

I'm not sure I'd say Israel is more focused. They're certainly killing civilians in larger numbers. The Americans at least pretend many of their attacks were unintentional or that intelligence was different from reality and in cases where they couldn't, they presented evidence of proportionality.

Not responding with overwhelming force to a terrorist attack will be perceived as weak and will achieve nothing.
So the same. Kill no one and achieve nothing, or kill 4.5 million people and achieve nothing. Why pick the death? What's the gain? To not look weak? Is image that important?

Who cares if you look weak? Unless you are. That's straight from Sun Tzu. Then it's a problem. But as we saw then and were seeing now, nether is weak. So who cares?

HAMAS will simply repeat the attack next month, by which time Natanyahu would be out of power and probably assassinated by Israelis. You cannot negotiate or "play nice" with terrorists; you have to destroy them.
First off, sending in police and special forces, as I've suggested, is not "playing nice". Secondly, you can't destroy them. They will always be there. So if the goal is to destroy them you're going to fail.

And if they render that difficult by using human shields, you cannot let that deter your operations. Because it is far too easy for HAMAS to commit its own war crimes and then claim immunity under international law by setting up its HQ in a hospital and surrounding itself with 100's of civilians.
Special forces could meet the conditions of the Conventions and minimize the loss of civilian lives. The will always be some collateral damage, but surgical raids by social forces have the chance to meet the humanitarian responsibilities where bombing a hospital does not.

While I understand the war crime / proportionality argument, it is very easy to "create" an inevitable war crime simply by doing exactly what HAMAS is doing. And that's my necessity argument. I'm sorry I put it in quotes and confused you. Necessity is a legal argument where one chooses the lesser of 2 evils. I added "dire" for flourish.
I think you'd have a hard time arguing for murder as a necessity in any court of law in a situation like this. If your neighbor kills your wife, you killing his entire family, buying down his house and the houses of everyone who is nice to him in retaliation is far more likely to merit the insanity defense then the necessity one.

Even if you're example of forced deportation. I can all guarantee the Hague will not buy the argument of "military necessity" to deport an entire ethnic group from it's home.

HAMAS could attack Israel every week from now to eternity - or as long as it has Iranian rockets to fire. Clearly the game has changed radically and suddenly in the ME. Israel has a right of self defence.
"As long as it has Iranian rockets to fire." Precisely. So you're setting up for war with Iran next? Same argument? Bomb hospitals and schools and neighborhoods? And if Syria and Lebanon start, them next? Maybe go after Russia for good measure?

I agree with the assessment about Iran. I covered that when I laid out my case. The lynchpin is doing something about weapons from Iran. For that Israel needs international support. For that it needs to not have the illegal occupations/blockades/settlements thrown in its face.
 
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