Toronto council votes in favour of Scarborough subway in major victory for Rob Ford

[Butler1000]

It will run along an existing transit corrider. Reduces the cost to develop. And a lot less hassle to build for both the crews and the residents.
I can use the walkability for any station not located in the core. Outer stations are surface(bus) feeder stations. It isn't about walkability to everyone in the city. Its about reduction of commute times.
I've lived in scarborough, very east, in Agincourt. Over half an hour on the bus to get from sheppard and kennedy to kennedy station. Put in the plan as is. Add three stops at kennedy, warden, and vic park. Connect to mccowen. Reduction of 15 minutes easy.
Sheppard ave becomes ripe for lowrise condos(fast track them like what the are doing now in various spots). And the sheppard line suddenly is usefull...and used.

For anyone who hasn't lived out there. Try it sometime. Take the subway and RT. See about the tranfer times. Try to get up to sheepard from the subway. I can pretty guarantee you will see the need.

 

[Butler1000]

And not much farther apart than say queen to king. That's a 7 minute walk. I do it all the time.

 

[fuji]

I challenge you to find a single station on the Bloor or Yonge line that does not serve a massive amount of walking traffic.

The projections I have seen mentioned say Scarborough population has to DOUBLE to make this cost effective.

 

[Celticman]

I challenge you to find a single station on the Bloor or Yonge line that does not serve a massive amount of walking traffic.

The projections I have seen mentioned say Scarborough population has to DOUBLE to make this cost effective.

Somewhat stating the obvious. They are very close together and surrounded by dense populations.

 

[GPIDEAL]

Not to mention the 7 stop LRT would have serviced higher density immigrant dominated areas, poorer folks and students (people) better. The 3 stop subway seems to mostly service more residential areas (where people drive more).

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra..._immigrants_students_and_poor_the_losers.html
'''
Scarborough subway: Route makes immigrants, students and poor the losers
Seven-stop LRT would serve more low-income and newcomer residents, while the three-stop subway route passes through higher-income areas.
'''

There are buses between subway stops. If the LRT at that zone is like a monorail like we see at Scarborough Town Centre, those are noisy (I had a GF live in a condo near the STC and that monorail was nosier than a subway).

The poor won't pay higher fares with a subway.

 

[GPIDEAL]

I challenge you to find a single station on the Bloor or Yonge line that does not serve a massive amount of walking traffic.

The projections I have seen mentioned say Scarborough population has to DOUBLE to make this cost effective.

How much more is the subway option vs. the LRT?

If the population of Scarborough is currently not dense enough, why would you even need 7 LRT stops?

 

[groggy]

How much more is the subway option vs. the LRT?

If the population of Scarborough is currently not dense enough, why would you even need 7 LRT stops?

Its estimated as $1 billion to $1.5 billion more for a subway, that will service fewer people and need the cancellation of work on Sheppard to make it possible.
LRT makes more sense, since its cheaper to build and run. You can cover more area with them, serve more people.
Subways need a certain amount of people using them to make them cost effective, without that its a long term drain on the system.
LRT would be less of a drain and might even have enough population using them to cover more of their costs.

 

[GPIDEAL]

Streetcars sre infinitely better than buses for everyone on a high volume route. Remember that one streetcar replaced multiple buses. It is not like you would fare any better in the road trying to pass five buses than one streetcar.

It is also a lot more expensive to operate buses when you have a streetcar level of traffic on the route because you wind up paying too many drivers.

Do you make this stuff up?

You never see five buses in a row. Streetcars require special tracks and those require maintenance.

If streetcars are INFINITELY better, why don't you see them as the primary transportation modes in the greatest cities around the world?

 

[fuji]

Do you make this stuff up?

You never see five buses in a row. Streetcars require special tracks and those require maintenance.

If streetcars are INFINITELY better, why don't you see them as the primary transportation modes in the greatest cities around the world?

I guess you are a new Canadian so you don't remember how awful driving on Spadina was back in the days of the 77b.

But certainly when you see a line of King streetcars carrying the morning rush at130+ people each you ought to be able to figure out that you would need four times as many buses clogging the road.

 

[oldjones]

And not much farther apart than say queen to king. That's a 7 minute walk. I do it all the time.

Neither the stations on the proposed subway line nor the route of the LRT are anything like that close to each other. In fact they're more like 20 minutes at a good pace apart. What is your point here?

As you say in an earlier post, it's transfer times that kill usage, and having many longer routes that serve smaller passenger loads but deliver them directly all the way—like LRTs— can eliminate many transfers. But reducing the infrastructure to high-speed-high volume routes just exacerbates the transfer problem. Gotta deliver the bodies to the line, instead of to where they wanna go.

I'll put my personal take as a guy who's lived south of Bloor-Danforth forever against yours. As often as not that E-W subway is a barrier to my north-south travel since so many 'feeder' lines stop there, forcing an unwanted transfer just to continue along the same direct route. If you're on the subway, once you get beyond the core the stations are spaced too far apart for comfortable walk between them. In fact, surface bus-routes are needed. Your King-Queen example works nicely, but subway stations can serve local travel only in the core. Just look at the map. It costs a fortune to bury a 5 story building.

Clearly we need more subway lines, but we also need LRTs, streetcars, buses and taxis as well, and we're only making it harder by letting buffoons frame the matter in either-or terms to suit some demented vision of a war in the streets.

 

[Butler1000]

I challenge you to find a single station on the Bloor or Yonge line that does not serve a massive amount of walking traffic.

The projections I have seen mentioned say Scarborough population has to DOUBLE to make this cost effective.

West end. Old mill, royal york, islington, kipling.
East end. Victoria park, warden station, kennedy.

Check who is using the exits to walk and who is going on to surface routes.

North. Finch station. Again. And by the way I have lived and or used most of the stations mentioned regularily. Have you? Have you even visited some of the them? You probably can't even describe the area around them. Or you never would have posted this.

 

[Butler1000]

Neither the stations on the proposed subway line nor the route of the LRT are anything like that close to each other. In fact they're more like 20 minutes at a good pace apart. What is your point here?

As you say in an earlier post, it's transfer times that kill usage, and having many longer routes that serve smaller passenger loads but deliver them directly all the way—like LRTs— can eliminate many transfers. But reducing the infrastructure to high-speed-high volume routes just exacerbates the transfer problem. Gotta deliver the bodies to the line, instead of to where they wanna go.

I'll put my personal take as a guy who's lived south of Bloor-Danforth forever against yours. As often as not that E-W subway is a barrier to my north-south travel since so many 'feeder' lines stop there, forcing an unwanted transfer just to continue along the same direct route. If you're on the subway, once you get beyond the core the stations are spaced too far apart for comfortable walk between them. In fact, surface bus-routes are needed. Your King-Queen example works nicely, but subway stations can serve local travel only in the core. Just look at the map. It costs a fortune to bury a 5 story building.

Clearly we need more subway lines, but we also need LRTs, streetcars, buses and taxis as well, and we're only making it harder by letting buffoons frame the matter in either-or terms to suit some demented vision of a war in the streets.

Your right. It isn't all or nothing. Except to those who came up with "Transit City". Show me in the plan where subways are in anyway treated equal.
Then get a map of Chicago....and see how a city with the same population did it right.
We are talking about probably 3 initial and three follow_up stations here.

But I'm not worried. A little more push and the funding will be there. Despite the best efforts of the downtown wards to stifle real progress and foist half-assed solutions on the suburbs.

 

[fuji]

West end. Old mill, royal york, islington, kipling.
East end. Victoria park, warden station, kennedy.

Check who is using the exits to walk and who is going on to surface routes.

North. Finch station. Again. And by the way I have lived and or used most of the stations mentioned regularily. Have you? Have you even visited some of the them? You probably can't even describe the area around them. Or you never would have posted this.

All the stations you mentioned get a ton of walk in traffic. I have visited all of them and used several of them on a regular basis.

Finch is surrounded by a massive number of condos along with a busy commercial area packed with restaurants and bars and all those stations are in dense residential areas.

Compare with deserted places like Bessarion.

Old Mill is the only one on the list that doesn't and is probably only there because the line was going through anyway.

Warden is one if the busiest stations in the system so you are an idiot for including that one.

 

[Butler1000]

And I lived in the area for about oh close to 9 years. For one period within walking of the station. Another within bus. And I AlSO watched the number of Condos that went up just when I was there.
Do you think they went up and the the station appeared? Or did the station go in and all the condos and offices go up? Lol. Seriously.
Take a look at the bus platform during rush hour at that station. And then the number who walk across the street to the GO bus, vaughn, markham transit hub. Then compare that to those who walk home.
Take a look at the steeles west bus alone. Ask anyone who ever went to York University the nightmare that is.
Then look ahead to the population growth for the next 25 years. Maybe then you can see its time for once to think ahead. And be proactive, not reactive.

 

[explorerzip]

West end. Old mill, royal york, islington, kipling.
East end. Victoria park, warden station, kennedy.

Check who is using the exits to walk and who is going on to surface routes.

North. Finch station. Again. And by the way I have lived and or used most of the stations mentioned regularily. Have you? Have you even visited some of the them? You probably can't even describe the area around them. Or you never would have posted this.

I would hardly call Old Mill a heavily used station compared to the others since it's located in an affluent area and people tend to drive. Islington has the highest passenger traffic of the ones you listed since there is lots of high rises in the area, a direct connection to the Sun Life Centre across the street and that's where riders from Mississauga Transit transfer to the TTC. Dundas West is another that gets a lot of passenger traffic.

I think the challenge with any transit expansion is that "build it and they will come" doesn't always pan out. The University line is a good example. It's been around long enough that you might have thought that there should be lots of high density development near it. That wouldn't be totally accurate. It's certainly driven up the property values in the area, but not increased density as much as the Yonge line. Maybe the problem with the University line is that it does not follow a single street like the Yonge line does?

 

[Butler1000]

And I totally agree about Bessarion. The subway should have gone west first. Connected the top of the yonge/univ line. But the developers wanted it there first. And Bessarion was supposed to be cancelled. Stupidity.
And has NOTHING to do with the extension in Scarborough. NOTHING. Different area, demographics, density. On and on.

 

[SirWanker]

It will run along an existing transit corrider. Reduces the cost to develop. And a lot less hassle to build for both the crews and the residents.

You sound like Ford in his explaination on how LRTs are like streetcars. Have you seen that above map?
McCowan is a transit corridor for cars and buses, a very busy one at that. It is NOT the existing SRT line.

I can use the walkability for any station not located in the core. Outer stations are surface(bus) feeder stations. It isn't about walkability to everyone in the city. Its about reduction of commute times.
I've lived in scarborough, very east, in Agincourt. Over half an hour on the bus to get from sheppard and kennedy to kennedy station. Put in the plan as is. Add three stops at kennedy, warden, and vic park. Connect to mccowen. Reduction of 15 minutes easy.

Care to explain the above because I have no idea what your point is.

For anyone who hasn't lived out there. Try it sometime. Take the subway and RT. See about the tranfer times. Try to get up to sheepard from the subway. I can pretty guarantee you will see the need.

Again I do not see your point. Having lived out in Agincourt for more than 15 years, taking the Midland bus from Kennedy Station to Sheppard Ave was often faster than taking the SRT itself.

 

[fuji]

The least used stations are the ones that are there for political reasons, or because people expected the subway to drive development.

Nobody uses rosedale, summer hill, or old mill but they exist because rich neighbourhoods nearby wanted to bump up property values by saying they were near a subway.

Glencairn never attracted the promised development. Stations like Chester have also never really spawned a lot of development despite being there forever.

The idea that a subway will double the population of Scarborough is silly.

Put a subway into an area you are projecting will grow on its own anyway but don't expect the subway itself to drive growth.

 

[SirWanker]

And I totally agree about Bessarion. The subway should have gone west first.

It would have no thanks to Harris, Hudak et PC

 

[explorerzip]

Mayor Ford, and the influence of Ford Nation, we see that the Federal Government will pay, the Provincial Government will pay, and we will pay too more in property tax. However, if I understand that correctly, we only pay extra tax for 3 or 4 years, maybe $40 to $200 more depending on the dog house or mansion one resides in. Then if Ford is still mayor, he will undoubtedly cut that tax.

If the majority wants subways and everyone is willing to pay a share of it, then it is a go.

What's interesting is what butler1000 alluded to, which is the future, that this unusual Scarborough subway will open the doors for more subway development in the future.

The other interesting thing, at least I think it is, is that if Ford sticks around as mayor for the next term and another one after that, then him and his brother's vision of getting rid of the street car will happen. Except for Spadina street car which is for the tourist. Suppose they build the downtown relief line. The King and Queen Street car, they're good as gone. Redundant and just in the way.

As a driver, I don't really like the street. But as a cyclist, I absolutely hate the street car. They should get rid of the street car far as I am concerned.

More buses.

We need more politicians at City Hall who support more buses.

The thing with taxes is that once the government gets used to the revenue, they'll never get rid of it. I seem to remember Chretien promising to get rid of the GST, but just replaced it with something else. One thing I don't think Ford has considered is that you still have to operate the new subway line. So increasing property taxes just for 3 or 4 years and then repeal it does not make sense. You still need the revenue to operate the line after it's built.