Toronto council votes in favour of Scarborough subway in major victory for Rob Ford

[explorerzip]

The least used stations are the ones that are there for political reasons, or because people expected the subway to drive development.

Nobody uses rosedale, summer hill, or old mill but they exist because rich neighbourhoods nearby wanted to bump up property values by saying they were near a subway.

Glencairn never attracted the promised development. Stations like Chester have also never really spawned a lot of development despite being there forever.

The idea that a subway will double the population of Scarborough is silly.

Put a subway into an area you are projecting will grow on its own anyway but don't expect the subway itself to drive growth.

Not sure about the stations located where they are only because of political reasons. These areas near Rosedale, Summer Hill and Old Mill might not have been rich neighbourhoods at the time when the stations were built. The proximity to the stations definitely drove property values up in the area, but I don't think the stations were built just for that reason.

You are right in that a subway won't magically increase population density. I'm going from memory, but the area of the proposed Scarborough subway is low density residential and commercial. For the subway to have any impact on population density in that area, you'd have to bulldoze a lot of single family homes and businesses and replace them with high-rises, which will never happen.

I imagine that zoning restrictions and community activism determines how much high density development goes on in a neighbourhood. If people don't want high-rises in their neighbourhood then developers simply won't go there even if there is a subway in the area.

 

[Butler1000]

It would have no thanks to Harris, Hudak et PC

And the past is past. Time to look to the future.

 

[Butler1000]

The least used stations are the ones that are there for political reasons, or because people expected the subway to drive development.

Nobody uses rosedale, summer hill, or old mill but they exist because rich neighbourhoods nearby wanted to bump up property values by saying they were near a subway.

Glencairn never attracted the promised development. Stations like Chester have also never really spawned a lot of development despite being there forever.

The idea that a subway will double the population of Scarborough is silly.

Put a subway into an area you are projecting will grow on its own anyway but don't expect the subway itself to drive growth.

And its the same in Chicago. But as long as you are running the line through there why not service its residents?

 

[Butler1000]

City is gaining about 40000 a year in new residents. Soon we will have more than Chicago. Ever see or ride their system? I have. More than once. They built for the future. So should we.

 

[fuji]

City is gaining about 40000 a year in new residents. Soon we will have more than Chicago. Ever see or ride their system? I have. More than once. They built for the future. So should we.

So if all those people moved to Scarborough instead of into the 50,000 condos under construction in the core, how many centuries until the subway is viable there?

 

[oldjones]

Not sure about the stations located where they are only because of political reasons. These areas near Rosedale, Summer Hill and Old Mill might not have been rich neighbourhoods at the time when the stations were built. The proximity to the stations definitely drove property values up in the area, but I don't think the stations were built just for that reason.

You are right in that a subway won't magically increase population density. I'm going from memory, but the area of the proposed Scarborough subway is low density residential and commercial. For the subway to have any impact on population density in that area, you'd have to bulldoze a lot of single family homes and businesses and replace them with high-rises, which will never happen.

I imagine that zoning restrictions and community activism determines how much high density development goes on in a neighbourhood. If people don't want high-rises in their neighbourhood then developers simply won't go there even if there is a subway in the area.

I think you've nailed the problem of subways in low-rise areas of single family homes. Those folks are there for life, and they'll sell to others like them. Assembling land for condo-style intensification will be slow and difficult. Not exactly good news for developers. But even a low-rise commercial strip can turn over properties faster and easier to assemble into larger parcels. But it won't be fast. The Chester station fuji singled out has only just now spawned a re-development higher than three floors, the first along that section of the Danforth. The stations there are only about a half kilometre apart, and ideal for intense development to replace the low rise commercial stuff, even if the home-owners resisted. But who's gonna put a major people-drawing development there, with only the one to-and from transit service to feed it? It'll be local users for a long time.

We have to stop thinking of transit as commuter services only, and start thinking about how we make the many trips we need to around the City daily. When folks can access stuff they want, they can appreciate density.

Frankly, let the fools who committed to hours of commuting by car when they bought their so-called 'less-expensive' suburban real estate live with their follies. Maybe they'll even figure out car-pooling, like our parents used to do. What the City needs to keep itself healthy and functional like Paris, and London, and Manhattan is a fine-grained transit network all over. Detroit thought all they needed to do was accommodate rush-hour commuters. Let's try to continue to be smarter.

 

[Butler1000]

So if all those people moved to Scarborough instead of into the 50,000 condos under construction in the core, how many centuries until the subway is viable there?

Considering even the origional plan calls for 25+ years to impliment. And 40000 per year coming in. Well let's see. Those 50000 condos will be gone pretty fast won't they. Then where will they live. And that's only if they can AFFORD to live downtown. Most can't and won't.
Try thinking 25 and 50 years ahead. It worked for a lot of other "world class" cities. Do you think those cities had the population density when they built their systems? Doubt it. They built them for future growth. Its PROGRESSIVE thinking.

 

[GPIDEAL]

I guess you are a new Canadian so you don't remember how awful driving on Spadina was back in the days of the 77b.

But certainly when you see a line of King streetcars carrying the morning rush at130+ people each you ought to be able to figure out that you would need four times as many buses clogging the road.

Unfortunately, I do remember but unless a roadway is wider (including removing street parking if you have to), a dedicated median is nuts, and you will have vehicular gridlock, so I wouldn't say 'infinitely' better.

I looked up LRT and when above ground, they are glorified streetcars, although with fewer stops in between as I understand it.

I see there'll be one along Hwy 7 at Leslie (if I understand it correctly). Where the existing roadway is wide and able to accommodate a dedicated median in the centre, that's okay by me.

Scarborough includes some wider roadways, so maybe it could've worked (just like Eglinton in Etobicoke - once you rationalize the road width for two lane traffic, there's probably space for a centre LRT).

 

[GPIDEAL]

The least used stations are the ones that are there for political reasons, or because people expected the subway to drive development.

Nobody uses rosedale, summer hill, or old mill but they exist because rich neighbourhoods nearby wanted to bump up property values by saying they were near a subway.

Glencairn never attracted the promised development. Stations like Chester have also never really spawned a lot of development despite being there forever.

The idea that a subway will double the population of Scarborough is silly.

Put a subway into an area you are projecting will grow on its own anyway but don't expect the subway itself to drive growth.

Fuji, believe it or not, there are still low rental apartments right across from the Old Mill subway station. Traffic is so bad nowadays, that even the rich condo or estate home dwellers will take the subway to a ball game or hockey game. Besides, it's a helluva long way between Jane and Royal York Roads not to have a stop in between.

 

[GPIDEAL]

Its estimated as $1 billion to $1.5 billion more for a subway, that will service fewer people and need the cancellation of work on Sheppard to make it possible.
LRT makes more sense, since its cheaper to build and run. You can cover more area with them, serve more people.
Subways need a certain amount of people using them to make them cost effective, without that its a long term drain on the system.
LRT would be less of a drain and might even have enough population using them to cover more of their costs.

Groggy, so the 1 to 1.5 billion dollars more is over and above the $1.8 billion that the government wants to fund (the Sun reports that Stintz expects $1.8B to transfer from the LRT to the Bloor-Danforth Extension, not $1.4B)?

 

[fuji]

Fuji, believe it or not, there are still low rental apartments right across from the Old Mill subway station. Traffic is so bad nowadays, that even the rich condo or estate home dwellers will take the subway to a ball game or hockey game. Besides, it's a helluva long way between Jane and Royal York Roads not to have a stop in between.

There are indeed a few users but the TTC published the stats of usage by station and Old Mill came second last. Only Glencairn gets less traffic.

(Excluding the fail that is the Sheppard subway. That entire line gets less usage than College station.)

 

[GPIDEAL]

There are indeed a few users but the TTC published the stats of usage by station and Old Mill came second last. Only Glencairn gets less traffic.

(Excluding the fail that is the Sheppard subway. That entire line gets less usage than College station.)

Well, I've always noticed it emptier than others.

 

[GPIDEAL]

It's bizarre how contentious and controversial transit in Toronto is, seems it's all just a bunch of politics. Having lived for years in both Edmonton and Calgary I'm amazed how much misinformation there is around LRTs, which imo are awesome, just like subways are awesome.... and just like buses and streetcars pretty much suck. LRTs don't interfere with car traffic, they don't stop running when it snows (lol), they aren't at all like street cars. LRTs are to subways, like buses are to street-cars... smaller, but more flexible. They usually have both above ground and below ground aspects to them but at least in the case of all the LRTs I've ridden the above ground sections have absolutely zero impact on car traffic as they don't run on the roads.

Seems like the existing LRT plan was a good one, I imagine if it had actually been built people would have been thrilled with the results. Instead you have a bunch of moron politicians at all levels of government spreading misinformation, flip-flopping, and instead of doing right by the people they work for being more concerned about advancing their own career or electoral prospects. Throwing out a perfectly good and funded plan makes no sense. The only reason to choose subways over LRTs imo is density, and density wise most of Toronto ain't anywhere close to NY, London, Paris etc. so LRTs are a perfectly good transit option.

Having followed municipal politics in Edmonton and Calgary for years, I got to say Toronto is a shocker, totally dysfunctional bunch of boobs, the whole downtown vs suburbs, left vs right thing I guess works well for getting votes but doesn't do much for getting things done, seems like a totally toxic situation, I think the entire council should get turfed for some adults!

Thank you for your comments and info.

Come to think of it, I rode what seemed to be an LRT in Dallas, Texas of all places back in 2004! At some points, it seemed like an above ground subway as opposed to a streetcar. Dallas' system uses automated equipment without the need for any human ticket agents, except vehicle operators. It was great actually.

 

[fmahovalich]

Vegas has a great monorail....that runs on time ALL THE TIME......has NO OPERATORS ON BOARD AT ALL.....SO FAR LESS SALARIES.

These are what should be running in the city core downtown....criss crossing for quick core access..and at the same time intersecting with the subway.

Talk about cheap and effective....and it's above grade too!! Away from the traffic. It would eliminate streetcars too!

Throw some sono tubes in the ground, some lightweight track up top.....dump some cars in place and away we go!

Or am I being too smart and efficient?

 

[explorerzip]

Considering even the origional plan calls for 25+ years to impliment. And 40000 per year coming in. Well let's see. Those 50000 condos will be gone pretty fast won't they. Then where will they live. And that's only if they can AFFORD to live downtown. Most can't and won't.
Try thinking 25 and 50 years ahead. It worked for a lot of other "world class" cities. Do you think those cities had the population density when they built their systems? Doubt it. They built them for future growth. Its PROGRESSIVE thinking.

One thing to keep in mind when comparing Toronto to other "world class" is the geography of those places. Major cities like London, Paris, Hong Kong, New York, Chicago, etc. have physical barriers like rivers, mountains, hills, valleys, etc. which have caused densities to be higher. When those city governments had to deal with limited land, it forced them to plan more carefully and use land wisely. Toronto basically has nothing other than Lake Ontario and the Don River stopping urban sprawl. So there was never any reason to build higher density communities or to think about transportation down the road.

We also need to consider that our subway system is significantly younger than many major cities. Ours was built in the 50's just when cars were becoming accessible to everyone. So the "Canadian dream" was and still is to have a house in the suburbs with a car parked in front. Other major cities don't really have that luxury.

All of this makes me wonder if downtown Toronto was located in a different spot (e.g. around the Don River valley) would that have made any difference to how the city developed.

 

[explorerzip]

Vegas has a great monorail....that runs on time ALL THE TIME......has NO OPERATORS ON BOARD AT ALL.....SO FAR LESS SALARIES.

These are what should be running in the city core downtown....criss crossing for quick core access..and at the same time intersecting with the subway.

Talk about cheap and effective....and it's above grade too!! Away from the traffic. It would eliminate streetcars too!

Throw some sono tubes in the ground, some lightweight track up top.....dump some cars in place and away we go!

Or am I being too smart and efficient?

I believe the Vegas monorail is privately owned and operated and the public did not pay for its construction. You do bring up a good point about privatization though. Let private companies build and run our subway system and they will attract development along the subway lines.

 

[explorerzip]

It's bizarre how contentious and controversial transit in Toronto is, seems it's all just a bunch of politics. Having lived for years in both Edmonton and Calgary I'm amazed how much misinformation there is around LRTs, which imo are awesome, just like subways are awesome.... and just like buses and streetcars pretty much suck. LRTs don't interfere with car traffic, they don't stop running when it snows (lol), they aren't at all like street cars. LRTs are to subways, like buses are to street-cars... smaller, but more flexible. They usually have both above ground and below ground aspects to them but at least in the case of all the LRTs I've ridden the above ground sections have absolutely zero impact on car traffic as they don't run on the roads.

Seems like the existing LRT plan was a good one, I imagine if it had actually been built people would have been thrilled with the results. Instead you have a bunch of moron politicians at all levels of government spreading misinformation, flip-flopping, and instead of doing right by the people they work for being more concerned about advancing their own career or electoral prospects. Throwing out a perfectly good and funded plan makes no sense. The only reason to choose subways over LRTs imo is density, and density wise most of Toronto ain't anywhere close to NY, London, Paris etc. so LRTs are a perfectly good transit option.

Having followed municipal politics in Edmonton and Calgary for years, I got to say Toronto is a shocker, totally dysfunctional bunch of boobs, the whole downtown vs suburbs, left vs right thing I guess works well for getting votes but doesn't do much for getting things done, seems like a totally toxic situation, I think the entire council should get turfed for some adults!

It's politics that gets in the way of transit development in this city. I think the new streetcars the TTC is getting would have been a lot cheaper if they bought them from Siemens out of Germany? But they went with the more expensive Bombardier models that were made in Thunder Bay. The roll out of Presto was a similar issue; the TTC was looking into a cheaper payment system, but had to go with Presto since the province basically forced them to.

 

[groggy]

Groggy, so the 1 to 1.5 billion dollars more is over and above the $1.8 billion that the government wants to fund (the Sun reports that Stintz expects $1.8B to transfer from the LRT to the Bloor-Danforth Extension, not $1.4B)?

The $1-1.5 billion is difference in costs estimated between subway and LRT for Scarborough, the total cost is around $2.8 billion for a subway.
The Ontario government has committed $1.8 billion to the LRT expansion and transit projects, but now says only $1.4 billion can be transferred to LRT, due to costs of conversions and expenses spent already.

Province limits its contribution to $1.4B, leaving funding for project uncertain

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2013/07/18/toronto-subway-murray-scarborough.html

Ford wants Ontario and the feds to pay for pretty much all of it, with his token 'skin in the game' a relative pittance.
Ontario won't commit more then $1.4 billion and Flaherty would allow $333 million to be taken from Sheppard but won't commit any new money, it appears.
Which makes the subway dead in the ground, and the LRT will happen by default.

Another loss looming for Ford.

 

[Wendel]

The $1-1.5 billion is difference in costs estimated between subway and LRT for Scarborough, the total cost is around $2.8 billion for a subway.
The Ontario government has committed $1.8 billion to the LRT expansion and transit projects, but now says only $1.4 billion can be transferred to LRT, due to costs of conversions and expenses spent already.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2013/07/18/toronto-subway-murray-scarborough.html

Ford wants Ontario and the feds to pay for pretty much all of it, with his token 'skin in the game' a relative pittance.
Ontario won't commit more then $1.4 billion and Flaherty would allow $333 million to be taken from Sheppard but won't commit any new money, it appears.
Which makes the subway dead in the ground, and the LRT will happen by default.

Another loss looming for Ford.

If Rob Ford has the city council re-visit the Casino in Woodbine Racetrack and approve it and other auxilliary entertainment complex, there will be enough money for the capital carrying cost and finish the subway project.

$54 m a year for Holding Fee plus additional annual property tax on the Casino building and other casino-related entertainment property. Totalling $70-80 m a year (may add even more from other operation licensing fee from shops, cafe, restaurant for example)? Very conservative estimate? Plus one time developement fee from casino building and other entertainment and shopping complex. The city can pay off this budget gap of $1b (it will be less than $1b if new property tax is being levied) in less than 10 years from now or the third or fourth year of the new subway operation.

 

[Moviefan-2]

Another loss looming for Ford.

Maybe not.

Remember, the Liberal government at Queen's Park has no principles and no spine. Ford may very well get what he wants.