One thing I can't understand is why there is such an opposition to tolls to partially fund transit. It's been done in other countries for a long time so why not here? A lot of people regard Hong Kong as having one of the most modern transit systems in the world. No surprise, lots of toll roads over there.
Toronto council votes in favour of Scarborough subway in major victory for Rob Ford
- Thread starter boodog
- Start date
Those TERBites who hang out in the Toronto Strip Clubs section may not like where this is all headed:
http://thestar.blogs.com/worlddaily/2013/07/tax-appeal-philadelphia-puts-move-on-lap-dancing.html
http://thestar.blogs.com/worlddaily/2013/07/tax-appeal-philadelphia-puts-move-on-lap-dancing.html
Because it will cost money to administer. And quite frankly I only see them screwing it up. As long as it is designated for transit, I have no issues with a property tax hike.
I don't even want to think what it will do to side street traffic.
Not to mention, multiple times it's initial estimated costs.
In a non corrupt more efficient country(I'm not going to name names as there are many), an entire subway system would have been built for what it will cost us for these three stops.
Where are the revenue generators that could help offset the costs like road pricing?
Oh wait, we already fully funded one one of those toll highways via taxpayer dollars then sold it to private interests to profit from.
Carry on Toronto, carry on.
My mistake, Wynn will offer to move $1.4 billion of $1.8 budgeted for transit.
Subways are a mistake for areas without the population density to support them.
They are built for a higher capacity, one which the line isn't planned on seeing for 20-30 years if at all.
LRT's are more flexible, would cover more area and more in need neighbourhoods.
Ford's vote pandering is putting McGuinty to shame.
It's going to cost money no matter what unless they decide to do nothing at all. I think in this situation we need to do something to change people's behaviour from driving everywhere to taking transit instead. Obviously, transit is not convenient for a lot of people so I think it will take a hit to the wallet to get people to think more carefully where they choose to live and how they get around. Property tax hikes are fine too, but it would only be a Toronto tax. Think of all the folks commuting from outside that are using Toronto roads and highways. In other words, Toronto citizens subsidizing the transit system for the 905'ers.
Another thing the TTC needs to look at is zone fares. Travel further: pay more. It's already done in York Region and GO and the TTC used to have it so why not bring it back? They're already rolling out the Presto Card so zone fares could be making a come back.
In the 1920's they built the bloor viaduct. They included in the planning the ability to add a subway line underneath. The subway wasn't built until 1950's.
Its called forward thinking. Put it in now. They have stated that we will hit the levels by 2031. Construction won't start until after the Pan Am games in 2015. I think its a good idea to forward think the 12-15 years ahead to population growth.
Also ends at shepard ave. Makes for a nice connection to add three more stops at vic park, warden, and kennedy on the top line.
Where did you see ridership estimates butler?
Last I heard the population if Scarborough would have to double to make it viable. I don't think we have that kind of growth here.
But that was just a comment in an opinion piece. Do you have sound and credible ridership and population projections?
It would be a huge blunder to build it if it winds up getting mothballed to save money ten years later.
Last I heard the population if Scarborough would have to double to make it viable. I don't think we have that kind of growth here.
But that was just a comment in an opinion piece. Do you have sound and credible ridership and population projections?
It would be a huge blunder to build it if it winds up getting mothballed to save money ten years later.
Nothing can be worse than the gas plant shutdown - a fraud perpetrated by our former premier.
Besides, a majority of councillors disagree with you.
Me too but not stupid streetcars and LRT (if and only if they are similar or cause similar congestion like that St. Clair streetcar, otherwise I'm okay with LRT).
Thanks Jenn. Can you provide me a link to what an/the LRT will look like there (physically speaking that is - artist's rendition)?
But fuji ... we get what we pay for.
If we only want hamburger, we pay for that. If we want steak, we pay more.
Mayor Ford, and the influence of Ford Nation, we see that the Federal Government will pay, the Provincial Government will pay, and we will pay too more in property tax. However, if I understand that correctly, we only pay extra tax for 3 or 4 years, maybe $40 to $200 more depending on the dog house or mansion one resides in. Then if Ford is still mayor, he will undoubtedly cut that tax.
If the majority wants subways and everyone is willing to pay a share of it, then it is a go.
What's interesting is what butler1000 alluded to, which is the future, that this unusual Scarborough subway will open the doors for more subway development in the future.
The other interesting thing, at least I think it is, is that if Ford sticks around as mayor for the next term and another one after that, then him and his brother's vision of getting rid of the street car will happen. Except for Spadina street car which is for the tourist. Suppose they build the downtown relief line. The King and Queen Street car, they're good as gone. Redundant and just in the way.
As a driver, I don't really like the street. But as a cyclist, I absolutely hate the street car. They should get rid of the street car far as I am concerned.
More buses.
We need more politicians at City Hall who support more buses.
I agree with you Polaris.
My friend told me that 70% of the whole, proposed LRT plan is underground. What will it look like above ground? Elevated like a monorail with a small footprint? Won't that be nosier than a subway?
Subways are the way to go in the long run.
I don't mind streetcars on very wide roadways, but on St. Clair it's a disaster. On other streets, if there's not a dedicated streetcar lane that is curbed (like St. Clair used to be) so that cars can drive over them, I can tolerate that, but buses would be better.
Streetcars sre infinitely better than buses for everyone on a high volume route. Remember that one streetcar replaced multiple buses. It is not like you would fare any better in the road trying to pass five buses than one streetcar.
It is also a lot more expensive to operate buses when you have a streetcar level of traffic on the route because you wind up paying too many drivers.
Subways are the highest volume option but they are very expensive to operate as well as build so if the ridership isn't there there will be pressure to save money by mothballing.
Sheppard subway has come close to being mothballed several times.
It is also a lot more expensive to operate buses when you have a streetcar level of traffic on the route because you wind up paying too many drivers.
Subways are the highest volume option but they are very expensive to operate as well as build so if the ridership isn't there there will be pressure to save money by mothballing.
Sheppard subway has come close to being mothballed several times.
Not to mention the 7 stop LRT would have serviced higher density immigrant dominated areas, poorer folks and students (people) better. The 3 stop subway seems to mostly service more residential areas (where people drive more).
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra..._immigrants_students_and_poor_the_losers.html
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Scarborough subway: Route makes immigrants, students and poor the losers
Seven-stop LRT would serve more low-income and newcomer residents, while the three-stop subway route passes through higher-income areas.
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Take a look at the two routes and how close they are. I m ean they are really close. This arguement of rich vs poor area is really weak. The difference can probably be better measured in metres than anything else. As for reach it adds a whole section north of the 401 to now have easier subway access. The new subway isn't meant so much for walkability(although more will come with development) but to allow ease of feeding to surface routes.
Just like about 80% of the rest of the existing stations
I'll add something else as well. Everyone is harping on the fact thhat the LRT has 7 stops and the new extention 3. Fine. But the existing RT line has 5 stops. So what the LRT will do is actually add only 2 more stops....at a cost of 1.8 billion. And really no difference to commute times...why. Because the where you lose time is in the TRANSFER. Ever gone from the subway to RT at Kennedy? You have to go up the equivelent of 6 stories to get to it. And then wait...then transfer again to your surface route(the majority). This takes away that step. Gaining about 10 minutes each way on the commute. That's 5000 minutes per year. That's a lot in transit terms.
And again. A whole lot of people north of the 401 gain easier access as well.
Add three more stops to the sheppard line and you close the loop up there.
Take a hard look at the map and see how much access you are giving for those 6 stops. And how much commute timescan drop as a result.
And again. A whole lot of people north of the 401 gain easier access as well.
Add three more stops to the sheppard line and you close the loop up there.
Take a hard look at the map and see how much access you are giving for those 6 stops. And how much commute timescan drop as a result.
If the number of new subway riders required to make this cost effective show up where will they go? The subway line from Bloor to Union is already over capacity and cannot carry any more riders and you are fooling yourself if you think the hundreds of thousands of jobs in the core are not THE destination.
This project only make sense if it is built along with, or after, a third line into downtown. You know, that place that people actuality go, unlike say, Bessarion.
This project only make sense if it is built along with, or after, a third line into downtown. You know, that place that people actuality go, unlike say, Bessarion.
Nonsense. They are not close at all.
Along the straightline arterial roads (which are damn scarce) it's a half hour walk—2.1km—from the Kennedy LRT route to the subway along McCowan, farther if you lived west or east of either the route.
But out there in the land of cul-de-sacs planned to convenience cars, most folks don't live on the straight connectors. Plot a route from Kennedy to McCowan that starts and ends between the arterials and you're doing a 5K. Walking time is 47 minutes. At least the LRT had stops between arterials, but burying subway stations is way too expensive, especially with the low population numbers along McCowan. As a feeder delivering people the LRT actually serves centres like Centennial College at it's north end, while the subway ignores them, and adding a new LRT station's a comparative breeze.
The real question is howcum the subway isn't running along the most commercially developed route in the neighbourhood, and fostering true urban development there? For that matter, since the thing runs underground why is it 'following' a surface road at all? Clearly no one is thinking of anything more than another rush-hour only line to deliver maximum commuters downtown at maximum speed. And cost.
