The Discussion That Anti-Zionism is Not Anti-Semitism

[Valcazar]

Saudi Arabia still supplies the US with some oil, historically that was the power.
But less so now and the US is now a bigger producer.
Though it would be far smarter to push transition to take the financing away from Putin and MBS.

The US should be at a better distance from all three, but just magically having that happen doesn't work.

But when the world sees you as the self declared Galactic Empire you then become the target for global resistance.

Which is one of the reasons only a few groups in the US have ever thought declaring themselves an Empire would be a good idea.
But the US has been a target of global resistance since it became a dominant super power.

In fact, one of the more shocking things over the last few decades is how good a job the US has done at avoiding a realignment of powers against it.

It was much better when the farce of being the face of 'democracy and freedom' was your brand.

The number of countries who think that is the brand probably hasn't changed much over this.
It's about where it has been - better than it was under Bush post Iraq and Afghanistan, worse than it was at the height of its popularity.

As easy as abolishing billionaires, isn't it?

Just about, yes.
Which is why I keep pointing out that simple "just do the thing" answers are ridiculous.

 

[Frankfooter]

The US should be at a better distance from all three, but just magically having that happen doesn't work.

Magic isn't what's needed.

Which is one of the reasons only a few groups in the US have ever thought declaring themselves an Empire would be a good idea.
But the US has been a target of global resistance since it became a dominant super power.

In fact, one of the more shocking things over the last few decades is how good a job the US has done at avoiding a realignment of powers against it.

Up until Oct, that is.
Now the US is less popular than Russia and China globally.

Just about, yes.
Which is why I keep pointing out that simple "just do the thing" answers are ridiculous.

Letting Biden continue has been ridiculous.
He's lost his base.

https://ajpaction.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/YouGov-Polling-Results-Full-Report-2024.pdf

 

[Valcazar]

Magic isn't what's needed.

I agree.

Up until Oct, that is.
Now the US is less popular than Russia and China globally.

Evidence?
Last thing I saw, the US was still more popular than either. (See article from earlier this month.)

US popularity shrinks worldwide, new report says

Washington’s staunch backing for Israel’s war in Gaza likely hurt its popularity.

www.politico.eu

I was also talking about international order, not general sentiment.

Letting Biden continue has been ridiculous.
He's lost his base.

https://ajpaction.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/YouGov-Polling-Results-Full-Report-2024.pdf

Did you link to the wrong thing?

 

[Frankfooter]

Evidence?
Last thing I saw, the US was still more popular than either. (See article from earlier this month.)

US popularity shrinks worldwide, new report says

Washington’s staunch backing for Israel’s war in Gaza likely hurt its popularity.

www.politico.eu

I was also talking about international order, not general sentiment.

This one:

The latest Democracy Perception Index reveals shifts in global perceptions

The Democracy Perception Index (DPI) issued its 2024 report on 8 May, revealing important and interesting shifts in global perceptions about democracy, geopolitics and international relations. The conclusions in the...

www.middleeastmonitor.com

https://www.allianceofdemocracies.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/DPI-2024.pdf

Did you link to the wrong thing?

Not at all, did you read it?

 

[Valcazar]

This one:

The latest Democracy Perception Index reveals shifts in global perceptions

The Democracy Perception Index (DPI) issued its 2024 report on 8 May, revealing important and interesting shifts in global perceptions about democracy, geopolitics and international relations. The conclusions in the...

www.middleeastmonitor.com

https://www.allianceofdemocracies.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/DPI-2024.pdf

Yes.
That's the same one I linked to.
It shows the US is more popular than China and Russia.

Not at all, did you read it?

I did.
It doesn't say he "lost his base" at all.
It's talking about something else entirely.

 

[Frankfooter]

Yes.
That's the same one I linked to.
It shows the US is more popular than China and Russia.

View attachment 328178

My bad, it was popularity in MENA countries that has dropped the largest with the chart on the next page showing those changes.
The poll is bad news for the US, along with democracy in general.

I did.
It doesn't say he "lost his base" at all.
It's talking about something else entirely.

You don't think losing 20% of your voters in the swing states isn't losing your base?
Combine that with his numbers for Arab Americans.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1792713940117725190

 

[Valcazar]

My bad, it was popularity in MENA countries that has dropped the largest with the chart on the next page showing those changes.

Fair enough.
Yes, in MENA, China is the most positively viewed.

The poll is bad news for the US, along with democracy in general.

No argument.

You don't think losing 20% of your voters in the swing states isn't losing your base?

That's not what the report says.

Combine that with his numbers for Arab Americans.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1792713940117725190

Arab Americans who are subscribers to an outreach organization and filled out an online poll?

Maybe that's not what that survey is, but The Truth Project doesn't inspire much confidence here: https://truthproject.us/news-grid/

 

[Frankfooter]

Arab Americans who are subscribers to an outreach organization and filled out an online poll?

Maybe that's not what that survey is, but The Truth Project doesn't inspire much confidence here: https://truthproject.us/news-grid/

If that were a single poll with this finding you'd have a good argument.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1778457908285673974

 

[Valcazar]

If that were a single poll with this finding you'd have a good argument.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1778457908285673974

That's not a poll of Arab Americans saying they will vote for Jill Stein.

 

[Frankfooter]

That's not a poll of Arab Americans saying they will vote for Jill Stein.

Are you still arguing that Biden's chances for reelection aren't being challenged by becoming Genocide Joe?

 

[Valcazar]

Are you still arguing that Biden's chances for reelection aren't being challenged by becoming Genocide Joe?

I've never said that.
They obviously are.

 

[Frankfooter]

I've never said that.
They obviously are.

No, you've just been calling into question every poll that suggests its hurting his reelection.

The question should be why haven't the dems stopped him from self destructing over Palestine?

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4690125-trump-gop-are-early-favorites-for-white-house-congress/

 

[Valcazar]

No, you've just been calling into question every poll that suggests its hurting his reelection.

I've been calling into question your interpretation of those polls.
Because you tend to over-read them to make them confirm to your prior beliefs.

The question should be why haven't the dems stopped him from self destructing over Palestine?

Because "The Dems" are not a monolith and this issue has multiple fault lines across the party.

 

[Frankfooter]

I've been calling into question your interpretation of those polls.
Because you tend to over-read them to make them confirm to your prior beliefs.

Sure, and where has that left you?
Months of declaring its not going to be a problem and now?

Because "The Dems" are not a monolith and this issue has multiple fault lines across the party.

So?
All the more reason that you work those fault lines to your advantage to force Biden to change before he puts rump in power and destroys Gaza.

Now you're just back to blaming voters who aren't 'pragmatic' and watching the democracy you've been so worried about be destroyed.
A very large part of the US has been trying to get Biden to listen and stop the genocide, now you want to take some moral position of superiority and blame them for what's coming.

 

[Valcazar]

Sure, and where has that left you?
Months of declaring its not going to be a problem and now?

I've not said it isn't going to be a problem.
I've said that just because you want to think it is the only thing responsible for Biden's numbers doesn't make it true.

So?
All the more reason that you work those fault lines to your advantage to force Biden to change before he puts rump in power and destroys Gaza.

Sure.
That's exactly right.

You asked why "they" haven't stopped him and I gave you the answer.

That there is a split means you can keep working at it.
I never said otherwise.

Now you're just back to blaming voters who aren't 'pragmatic' and watching the democracy you've been so worried about be destroyed.
A very large part of the US has been trying to get Biden to listen and stop the genocide, now you want to take some moral position of superiority and blame them for what's coming.

They should be trying to get Biden to listen if their goal is to change the policy.
I'm not blaming them for that at all.

 

[Frankfooter]

They should be trying to get Biden to listen if their goal is to change the policy.
I'm not blaming them for that at all.

Yes you are.

You keep trying to blame me and other voters who won't vote for Biden's genocide instead of arguing that the party needs to stop the genocide.
In all of these debates you have yet to say that Biden's choice is wrong, instead you repeatedly argue that its wrong not to still support him.
You have not once argued that the change needs to be with the party and Biden.

 

[Valcazar]

Yes you are.

You keep trying to blame me and other voters who won't vote for Biden's genocide instead of arguing that the party needs to stop the genocide.
In all of these debates you have yet to say that Biden's choice is wrong, instead you repeatedly argue that its wrong not to still support him.
You have not once argued that the change needs to be with the party and Biden.

Biden's policy is wrong here.
I've said that more than once, Frank.
The change does need to be within the party and Biden.

I am blaming you (not that you actually vote) for arguing that not voting for Biden is the right thing to do, because it will not get you what you want.
That is, of course, if what you want is better policy from the US on this issue.
If what you want is to feel morally pure and punish Biden for what you think is bad behavior, then it will.

 

[Frankfooter]

Biden's policy is wrong here.
I've said that more than once, Frank.
The change does need to be within the party and Biden.

I am blaming you (not that you actually vote) for arguing that not voting for Biden is the right thing to do, because it will not get you what you want.
That is, of course, if what you want is better policy from the US on this issue.
If what you want is to feel morally pure and punish Biden for what you think is bad behavior, then it will.

Your blame is on the wrong target.
Blame Biden.
And work to get him to change policy.

No voter should ever be attacked for refusing to vote for someone actively aiding genocide.
Attack Biden instead.

 

[Frankfooter]

If what you want is to feel morally pure and punish Biden for what you think is bad behavior, then it will.

You're back to this concept that votes are owed to politicians and not voting for them is punishment.
Votes are earned, not owed.

It is not 'punishment' to refuse to vote for genocide.

You know how democracy is supposed to work.

 

[Valcazar]

Your blame is on the wrong target.
Blame Biden.
And work to get him to change policy.

No voter should ever be attacked for refusing to vote for someone actively aiding genocide.
Attack Biden instead.

Voters should 100 percent be blamed for the government their voting behavior produces.

You're back to this concept that votes are owed to politicians and not voting for them is punishment.
Votes are earned, not owed.

It is not 'punishment' to refuse to vote for genocide.

You know how democracy is supposed to work.

Supposed

I am glad that somewhere in all of this you have at least internalized that this isn't the system you are actually talking about.
(I would say "are in", but you don't vote in US elections.)

You want to behave based in the way you want the system to work instead of the system that exists.

As I keep pointing out to you, acting that way only makes your own goals less likely.
This is a known, documented flaw in the electoral system as it stands right now.

Closing your eyes and wishing really hard that if you just acted as if the system worked the way you feel it should then it will doesn't actually accomplish anything useful.