The Discussion That Anti-Zionism is Not Anti-Semitism

[Valcazar]

The situation has changed.
Ceasefire was offered and Israel chose to cross the US's red line and attack Rafah.

No, this isn't about the US. Its just become more clear that Netanyahu was dangling the possibility of a ceasefire the way he dangled the two state solution during Oslo while installing 'facts on the ground'.

None of which is relevant to the point you seemed to be arguing - that a ceasefire only happens when both sides decide fighting isn't better.

In fact, this just shows I was right.
Israel still thinks it can get what it wants by fighting, so a ceasefire isn't going to happen.

 

[Frankfooter]

None of which is relevant to the point you seemed to be arguing - that a ceasefire only happens when both sides decide fighting isn't better.

In fact, this just shows I was right.
Israel still thinks it can get what it wants by fighting, so a ceasefire isn't going to happen.

Now it looks like Gantz might be the one to stop the genocide.
Discussion of ceasefires are moot now, its clear that the genocide continues until Netanyahu is stopped.
Biden won't stop him, his red lines are for show only.

There are no military goals left, Israel can't defeat Hamas and can only kill the hostages by continuing.
You aren't right though, its not Israel getting what it wants its Netanyahu trying to keep his political career at the cost of Gaza and zionism.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-benjamin-netanyahu-1.7206266

 

[basketcase]

Israel needs more than a new election.
...

I find it so interesting that you repeatedly quote Israeli voices and admit that there is a vocal anti-government and pro-peace activist community but at the same time you demand they all get boycotted and the country gets eliminated.

I have many times said the Good Friday Agreement was a good model for moving forward but your only 'solution' is still eliminating the Jewish presence and ignoring any wrongs done by Palestinian leadership.

 

[basketcase]

One side did and agreed to the the terms proposed, working with the US.
Then the other refused.

Yet you refuse to admit that was Hamas, many many times.

Hamas later claimed to 'accept' a peace offer but the reality was they sent a counter-offer that was more hardline in most areas than their original positions including releasing fewer hostages and demanding more Hamas members convicted to life sentences. And the US wasn't involved. The only international involvement was Qatar and Egypt forwarding Hamas' proposal.

And you have never condemned Hamas for their repeated refusal.

 

[Frankfooter]

I find it so interesting that you repeatedly quote Israeli voices and admit that there is a vocal anti-government and pro-peace activist community but at the same time you demand they all get boycotted and the country ends zionism.

I have many times said the Good Friday Agreement was a good model for moving forward but your only 'solution' is still arguing for equal rights and calling for the law to be applied on both sides equally.

Fixed your post to more accurately represent my views and eliminate all straw man claims.

Yes, I quote Jewish, Palestinian and Canadian voices.
I quote the UN, Amnesty, HRW.

I back the law and equal rights.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1792222706575855884

 

[Frankfooter]

Yet you refuse to admit that was Hamas, many many times.

Hamas later claimed to 'accept' a peace offer but the reality was they sent a counter-offer that was more hardline in most areas than their original positions including releasing fewer hostages and demanding more Hamas members convicted to life sentences. And the US wasn't involved. The only international involvement was Qatar and Egypt forwarding Hamas' proposal.

And you have never condemned Hamas for their repeated refusal.

Israel is the occupying power now committing genocide against 2.2 million stateless refugees living in a giant death camp.
Palestinians are the victims.

This ends when Israel is stopped.
Either by Biden, the UN/ICC, BDS or Israelis.

Zionism = genocide

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1791813623737631110

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1791500035433111606

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1791058953872236668

 

[Valcazar]

Now it looks like Gantz might be the one to stop the genocide.
Discussion of ceasefires are moot now, its clear that the genocide continues until Netanyahu is stopped.
Biden won't stop him, his red lines are for show only.

Again. Are you asking Biden to invade?
How else is he going to "stop him"?

There are no military goals left, Israel can't defeat Hamas and can only kill the hostages by continuing.

Israel "defeating Hamas" this way was never going to happen.
Whether that stated military goal was delusion or just a lie is something I don't know.

You aren't right though

Yes I am.
A ceasefire happens when the sides who are shooting decide they can't get what they want by shooting.

its not Israel getting what it wants its Netanyahu trying to keep his political career at the cost of Gaza and zionism.

What does that have to do with anything I've said about when ceasefire's happen?

 

[Valcazar]

I have many times said the Good Friday Agreement was a good model for moving forward but your only 'solution' is still eliminating the Jewish presence and ignoring any wrongs done by Palestinian leadership.

It is an interesting model, but you need motivated people on both sides who are in power and think it is a model to adopt.
That doesn't appear to be the case here.

 

[Frankfooter]

Again. Are you asking Biden to invade?
How else is he going to "stop him"?

Again, Biden chose to veto UN and UNSC resolutions and chooses to continue to send billions for bombs.
Netanyahu could not continue without the US behind them.
We'll see how Biden reacts to the ICC news, but I expect he'll continue to support the genocide.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/20/middleeast/icc-israel-hamas-arrest-warrant-war-crimes-intl/index.html

Israel "defeating Hamas" this way was never going to happen.
Whether that stated military goal was delusion or just a lie is something I don't know.

Israel's usual goal in the Gaza slaughters had been 'mowing the lawn', killing enough Palestinians to keep them temporarily subjugated.
This time it looks like it was originally ethnic cleansing, but Egypt and their other neighbours refused.
Then it seemed to switch to 'destroying' Hamas, even though that was always impossible.
Now it seems to be destroy Gaza, shrink the land with a massive buffer and take the best beach parts while killing as many as they can.
Though really it was always Netanyahu trying to keep the attack going as long as possible to keep himself in power.

Yes I am.
A ceasefire happens when the sides who are shooting decide they can't get what they want by shooting.

Its not both sides shooting right now.

What does that have to do with anything I've said about when ceasefire's happen?

Your arguments are based on both sides having equal power.

 

[Valcazar]

Again, Biden chose to veto UN and UNSC resolutions and chooses to continue to send billions for bombs.
Netanyahu could not continue without the US behind them.
We'll see how Biden reacts to the ICC news, but I expect he'll continue to support the genocide.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/20/middleeast/icc-israel-hamas-arrest-warrant-war-crimes-intl/index.html

Your belief that Biden can stop him with a snap of his fingers remains bizarre.
Can he do more? Of course.
But you keep insisting that he single-handedly controls what Netanyahu does.

Israel's usual goal in the Gaza slaughters had been 'mowing the lawn', killing enough Palestinians to keep them temporarily subjugated.
This time it looks like it was originally ethnic cleansing, but Egypt and their other neighbours refused.
Then it seemed to switch to 'destroying' Hamas, even though that was always impossible.
Now it seems to be destroy Gaza, shrink the land with a massive buffer and take the best beach parts while killing as many as they can.
Though really it was always Netanyahu trying to keep the attack going as long as possible to keep himself in power.

None of which contradicts my point about how ceasefires happen.

Its not both sides shooting right now.

All Hamas attacks have stopped?
They don't even shoot back to defend themselves now?

Your arguments are based on both sides having equal power.

No, they aren't.
In fact, the arguments are explicitly about the fact that both sides have asymmetric power and goals.

 

[Frankfooter]

Your belief that Biden can stop him with a snap of his fingers remains bizarre.
Can he do more? Of course.
But you keep insisting that he single-handedly controls what Netanyahu does.

Your rather naive views on the power of US support are surprising here, valcazar.
Biden could stop the genocide if he wanted to do so.
Unfortunately, it appears he wants it to keep going on.

Could he do more? He's done nothing to stop Israel. He makes public statements that he's for a ceasefire then vetoes it at the UNSC, he says he's for the two state solution then vetoes it at the UN, he says he'll withhold weapons after Rafah then sends another billion.

Back the ICC, back the UN, back the ICJ and end all Israel funding and it stops.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1792621132916601336

 

[Valcazar]

Your rather naive views on the power of US support are surprising here, valcazar./QUOTE]

I am well aware of the extent and limits of US power.

Biden could stop the genocide if he wanted to do so.
Unfortunately, it appears he wants it to keep going on.

Assumes facts not in evidence.
(Since I assume there are ways of stopping it you wouldn't approve of.)

Could he do more? He's done nothing to stop Israel. He makes public statements that he's for a ceasefire then vetoes it at the UNSC, he says he's for the two state solution then vetoes it at the UN, he says he'll withhold weapons after Rafah then sends another billion.

Back the ICC, back the UN, back the ICJ and end all Israel funding and it stops.
[/QUOTE]

The US has never backed the ICC and isn't going to start now.
(It also isn't something Biden can do by executive fiat.)

The ICJ relationship is also a fraught one that extends beyond Israel.

But I do get it - the US should turn on Israel and make it a pariah state.
And Biden should do this on his own, without any political support.
In fact, the entire US policy is just Biden's whim and he can change things in an instant with a snap of his fingers.

Sure.

 

[Frankfooter]

The US has never backed the ICC and isn't going to start now.
(It also isn't something Biden can do by executive fiat.)

The ICJ relationship is also a fraught one that extends beyond Israel.

But I do get it - the US should turn on Israel and make it a pariah state.
And Biden should do this on his own, without any political support.
In fact, the entire US policy is just Biden's whim and he can change things in an instant with a snap of his fingers.

Sure.

I know, the US isn't a signatory to the ICC and ICJ but you do know they can try to block them at the UNSC.
Biden would have support of dem voters for holding Israel to the law, he'd have the wrath of AIPAC and all those taking their money but you're not going to argue that they have that much control over the US, are you?

Do you think this is the way it should be?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1792624041259352175

 

[Valcazar]

I know, the US isn't a signatory to the ICC and ICJ but you do know they can try to block them at the UNSC.

The US policy of vetoing almost everything at the SC level is a long-standing problem.
Of course, letting a vote pass won't change much on the ground, but there is still more it can do there.

Biden would have support of dem voters for holding Israel to the law, he'd have the wrath of AIPAC and all those taking their money but you're not going to argue that they have that much control over the US, are you?

Do they control the US?
No.
Even if they like to brag they do.
The idea that the only reason the US population and politicians have support for Israel is AIPAC is weird nonsense.

Do you think this is the way it should be?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1792624041259352175

Not at all.
But this is a problem that's existed for decades and isn't about Israel.
It's a "there are superpowers" problem.

 

[Frankfooter]

The US policy of vetoing almost everything at the SC level is a long-standing problem.
Of course, letting a vote pass won't change much on the ground, but there is still more it can do there.

Yes, the Negroponte Doctrine is well known.
Using that as an excuse for not calling out genocide is ridiculous.

Do they control the US?
No.
Even if they like to brag they do.
The idea that the only reason the US population and politicians have support for Israel is AIPAC is weird nonsense.

Then why does the US continue to back a country that was named as one of the foreign policies that lead to 9/11?
Does the US really get anything of value for backing Israel?

Not at all.
But this is a problem that's existed for decades and isn't about Israel.
It's a "there are superpowers" problem.

Sure, its a UNSC veto problem as well.
Just stop all the pretence that its about 'democracy' or anything other than power.
In which case if you support genocide on Palestinians because you're a superpower, that makes it all more clear and more evil.

 

[Valcazar]

Yes, the Negroponte Doctrine is well known.
Using that as an excuse for not calling out genocide is ridiculous.

You are not alone in disagreeing with the Negroponte doctrine.

Then why does the US continue to back a country that was named as one of the foreign policies that lead to 9/11?
Does the US really get anything of value for backing Israel?

The US still backs Saudi Arabia and they were even more responsible for 9/11.
There is a general view that the US needs to keep 2 of the 3 major regional powers more or less on side.
Iran is right out these days so that leaves Israel and Saudi Arabia.

All three are terrible partners.

There are LOTS of reasons to question this approach.
Given it has been policy for decades, though, none of it is changing overnight.

Sure, its a UNSC veto problem as well.
Just stop all the pretence that its about 'democracy' or anything other than power.

International relations has always been about power.
It is anarchy and always has been.
That said, pretending it isn't about "anything other than power" is also wrong, since regimes have other motivators mixed in, like all things created by humans.

In which case if you support genocide on Palestinians because you're a superpower, that makes it all more clear and more evil.

So abolish superpowers.

 

[basketcase]

Israel is the occupying power ...

Lots of excuses for your belief that Palestinians aren't capable of being responsible for their actions.

 

[Frankfooter]

You are not alone in disagreeing with the Negroponte doctrine.

This would be a fine time to register AIPAC to FARA as foreign lobbyists.
Top Israeli diplomat asks AIPAC to push for ‘dramatic steps’ against ICC

The US still backs Saudi Arabia and they were even more responsible for 9/11.
There is a general view that the US needs to keep 2 of the 3 major regional powers more or less on side.
Iran is right out these days so that leaves Israel and Saudi Arabia.

All three are terrible partners.

There are LOTS of reasons to question this approach.
Given it has been policy for decades, though, none of it is changing overnight.

Saudi Arabia still supplies the US with some oil, historically that was the power.
But less so now and the US is now a bigger producer.
Though it would be far smarter to push transition to take the financing away from Putin and MBS.

US and Saudi Arabia close to security, nuclear deal: White House

International relations has always been about power.
It is anarchy and always has been.
That said, pretending it isn't about "anything other than power" is also wrong, since regimes have other motivators mixed in, like all things created by humans.

But when the world sees you as the self declared Galactic Empire you then become the target for global resistance.
It was much better when the farce of being the face of 'democracy and freedom' was your brand.

So abolish superpowers.

As easy as abolishing billionaires, isn't it?

 

[Valcazar]

Saudi Arabia still supplies the US with some oil, historically that was the power.
But less so now and the US is now a bigger producer.
Though it would be far smarter to push transition to take the financing away from Putin and MBS.

The US should be at a better distance from all three, but just magically having that happen doesn't work.

But when the world sees you as the self declared Galactic Empire you then become the target for global resistance.

Which is one of the reasons only a few groups in the US have ever thought declaring themselves an Empire would be a good idea.
But the US has been a target of global resistance since it became a dominant super power.

In fact, one of the more shocking things over the last few decades is how good a job the US has done at avoiding a realignment of powers against it.

It was much better when the farce of being the face of 'democracy and freedom' was your brand.

The number of countries who think that is the brand probably hasn't changed much over this.
It's about where it has been - better than it was under Bush post Iraq and Afghanistan, worse than it was at the height of its popularity.

As easy as abolishing billionaires, isn't it?

Just about, yes.
Which is why I keep pointing out that simple "just do the thing" answers are ridiculous.

 

[Frankfooter]

The US should be at a better distance from all three, but just magically having that happen doesn't work.

Magic isn't what's needed.

Which is one of the reasons only a few groups in the US have ever thought declaring themselves an Empire would be a good idea.
But the US has been a target of global resistance since it became a dominant super power.

In fact, one of the more shocking things over the last few decades is how good a job the US has done at avoiding a realignment of powers against it.

Up until Oct, that is.
Now the US is less popular than Russia and China globally.

Just about, yes.
Which is why I keep pointing out that simple "just do the thing" answers are ridiculous.

Letting Biden continue has been ridiculous.
He's lost his base.

https://ajpaction.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/YouGov-Polling-Results-Full-Report-2024.pdf