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The Discussion That Anti-Zionism is Not Anti-Semitism

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basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Frankfooter said:
Hamas likely targeted 300-600 civilians on Oct 7 but there were no rapes by Hamas, there is no evidence.
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Except the evidence that you refuse to accept. You will continue to deny Hamas members raping Jews even if Sinwar was on camera personally demanding women be raped and doing it himself.

But this is huge as you finally admit that Hamas targeted civilians.
 
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basketcase

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Frankfooter said:
The sticking point is that Israel wants a pause for the return of hostages and then a return to genocide.
Hamas wants a permanent ceasefire.
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Bullshit on both cases. Israel wants Hamas destroyed. I'm sure Netanyahu would be much happier if Hamas stopped hiding behind civilians and engaged in direct warfare. And Hamas doesn't want a permanent ceasefire since that would mean accepting permanent peace alongside Israel. There was a permanent ceasefire before Oct 7 but Hamas felt that they could get a win by targeting Israeli civilians and hoped Israel wouldn't strike back heavily. They simply want Israel to stop diminishing their strength so they can build up for another attack. And yes, their leadership has repeatedly stated their aims are war until Israel is gone.
 
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Frankfooter

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Valcazar said:
At this point you are going to need to give a concrete example of what you think you are talking about when you say "guarantee".

I won't even ask you for the nth time what you want Biden to guarantee.

Give me an example from another situation that explains your position when you say you want a guarantee in an international relations talk.
Because at this point we seem to be talking about very different things but you seem to be thinking of something specific and not just rambling so just point me to it so I can figure out what you mean.
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An example.
Report: Hamas okays 1st phase of hostage deal, after US guarantees IDF withdrawal from Gaza once all phases completed


There will be no mass movement around Jill Stein.
But your whole argument here is therefore "you need to vote based on the actual circumstances happening".

Which is, again, my whole fucking point.
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Yes, we just disagree on which circumstances are more important right now.




Just dodging the question, I see.
None.
(This was December by the way)
He called for peace and a return of the hostages.
No details.
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www.vaticannews.va

Pope Francis calls for a ceasefire in the Holy Land - Vatican News

Pope Francis prays for an end to the violence in the Holy Land, especially in Gaza where a humanitarian catastrophe has unfolded, as well as for the ...
www.vaticannews.va www.vaticannews.va

Pope Francis calls for ceasefire in Gaza and Ukraine in Easter message
 
F

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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basketcase said:
Except the evidence that you refuse to accept. You will continue to deny Hamas members raping Jews even if Sinwar was on camera personally demanding women be raped and doing it himself.

But this is huge as you finally admit that Hamas targeted civilians.
Click to expand...
I have never denied Hamas targeted civilians on Oct 7, the question still remains how many were killed by Hamas and how many by the IDF's Hannibal Doctrine.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1787557179320397976
 
Valcazar

Valcazar

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Mar 27, 2014
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Frankfooter said:
An example.
Report: Hamas okays 1st phase of hostage deal, after US guarantees IDF withdrawal from Gaza once all phases completed
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So an unnamed source reporting an unverified agreement?

But ok, so in other words, if I understand, you want something that the US is backing up Israel's agreement.
The US puts some credibility on the line in some concrete way in the agreement so that Hamas doesn't have to trust Israel.

Or, is it your idea that this works where the US threatens Israel, since in this report Israel didn't agree this but somehow the US "guaranteed" Hamas they would make it happen anyway?

In other words, what appears to be the issue between us is which comes first.
Does the US guarantee something to Hamas and then force Israel to accept it? Or does the US act as an assurance of something agreed to?

Yes, we just disagree on which circumstances are more important right now.
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*sigh*

Dammit.
I thought you had actually had a breakthrough and understood something.

www.vaticannews.va

Pope Francis calls for a ceasefire in the Holy Land - Vatican News

Pope Francis prays for an end to the violence in the Holy Land, especially in Gaza where a humanitarian catastrophe has unfolded, as well as for the ...
www.vaticannews.va www.vaticannews.va

Pope Francis calls for ceasefire in Gaza and Ukraine in Easter message
Click to expand...
Exactly.
No details.
Just praying for peace.
People should stop killing each other.
Something everyone vaguely agrees with but differs on the details.
 
F

Frankfooter

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Valcazar said:
So an unnamed source reporting an unverified agreement?

But ok, so in other words, if I understand, you want something that the US is backing up Israel's agreement.
The US puts some credibility on the line in some concrete way in the agreement so that Hamas doesn't have to trust Israel.

Or, is it your idea that this works where the US threatens Israel, since in this report Israel didn't agree this but somehow the US "guaranteed" Hamas they would make it happen anyway?

In other words, what appears to be the issue between us is which comes first.
Does the US guarantee something to Hamas and then force Israel to accept it? Or does the US act as an assurance of something agreed to?
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Nobody trusts Netanyahu, not his people, not his government and probably only Biden.
Its looking almost too late now, Rafah is under attack and Netanyahu is trying to 'finish the job' while Biden refuses to stop him.

So what do you do now?
Hamas offered a ceasefire, Israel refused and Biden pretends to be shocked.

How does it get stopped?



*sigh*

Dammit.
I thought you had actually had a breakthrough and understood something.
Click to expand...
Again, how does it get stopped?
That seems a more important debate than which old genocide supporter gets elected in Nov.


Exactly.
No details.
Just praying for peace.
People should stop killing each other.
Something everyone vaguely agrees with but differs on the details.
Click to expand...
If only everyone agreed on that.
 
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Valcazar

Valcazar

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Frankfooter said:
Nobody trusts Netanyahu, not his people, not his government and probably only Biden.
Click to expand...
Biden doesn't trust Netanyahu.

Its looking almost too late now, Rafah is under attack and Netanyahu is trying to 'finish the job' while Biden refuses to stop him.

So what do you do now?
Hamas offered a ceasefire, Israel refused and Biden pretends to be shocked.

How does it get stopped?
Click to expand...
You get a ceasefire when both sides think a ceasefire is better than the alternative.

This isn't answering the question of what you think a "guarantee" means here and when it gets offered, btw.

Again, how does it get stopped?
That seems a more important debate than which old genocide supporter gets elected in Nov.
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It is.
But since neither of us lives in Israel, there isn't much we can do about it.
I'm glad you finally agree that "Vote Against Biden" will do nothing to stop it, though.

There is a theory that the best way to stop it is to accelerate it and wipe everyone out, but I like to think neither of us agree.

If only everyone agreed on that.
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Welcome to reality, Frank.
"Be nicer to each other" is a moral precept in almost every ethical system.
Still doesn't stop people from being shits.
 
F

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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Valcazar said:
You get a ceasefire when both sides think a ceasefire is better than the alternative.
Click to expand...
No, you get a ceasefire when the side committing genocide decides to stop committing genocide.
Its not a war between equal parties and the Israelis decide when it ends, like they decided when they end their occupation of Palestine.

This isn't answering the question of what you think a "guarantee" means here and when it gets offered, btw.
Click to expand...
If you think Biden doesn't trust Netanyahu and you think the US can't stop Israel, as you argue, then it doesn't matter to you.
From your arguments you would think a guarantee to be worthless.


It is.
But since neither of us lives in Israel, there isn't much we can do about it.
I'm glad you finally agree that "Vote Against Biden" will do nothing to stop it, though.

There is a theory that the best way to stop it is to accelerate it and wipe everyone out, but I like to think neither of us agree.
Click to expand...
If everyone in the US said they won't vote for Biden at once, do you think he'd stop supporting genocide?
That sounds better than some mutual destruction.

Welcome to reality, Frank.
"Be nicer to each other" is a moral precept in almost every ethical system.
Still doesn't stop people from being shits.
Click to expand...
Sadly, freedom means the freedom to let people be asshats.
 
S

shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
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Toronto
Frankfooter said:
Hamas already did and Netanyahu refused.
You get a ceasefire when he decides to stop committing genocide.
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He refused when Hamas unilaterally changed the terms of what was agreed upon.

My point stands, a ceasefire requires bilateral agreement.
 
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