The Discussion That Anti-Zionism is Not Anti-Semitism

[basketcase]

You've never criticized zombies or unicorns either.
Let me know when you have some things that really happened and we can discuss them.
...

This is just like you denying that Hamas targeted civilians on the 7th or there were multiple cases of rape and sexual violence.

But I guess covering your eyes and ears is the only way you can justify cheering for groups like Hamas and the Houthis.



p.s. Your article headline is bullshit that you couldn't even bother linking to for fear that reality would get in the way. With Egypt and Qatar, Israel put together a ceasefire offer that the US and Arab league felt was legit and fair. Hamas replied by hardening their positions but stating they had an agreement. The reality is Israel repeatedly accepting deals with Hamas refusing. Hell, Hamas just demanded air drops of aid be stopped. Seems they're more interested in posting pictures of needy people than actually helping them.

Hamas urges halt to airdrops of aid in Gaza after two killed

Hamas on Thursday called for an end to airdrops of aid after two Palestinians were killed in northern Gaza when a aid pallet crashed into a warehouse after its parachute failed to open.

www.france24.com

 

[basketcase]

Hamas is in discussion with the US to get a guarantee that...

Their demands are even more Palestinian prisoners released, even more Palestinians convicted of capital crimes released and offering even fewer of their hostages. Israel has conceded many things in the negotiations because that's how negotiations work while Hamas keeps demanding more because peace is not in their interests. Hamas needs the civilians to protect them and need their suffering to push their narrative so of course they reject anything that would help their people.

 

[Frankfooter]

This is just like you denying that Hamas targeted civilians on the 7th or there were multiple cases of rape and sexual violence.

Hamas likely targeted 300-600 civilians on Oct 7 but there were no rapes by Hamas, there is no evidence.
There is evidence, testimonials, reports and victim names from accusations of rape by Palestinians and Palestinian minors by the IDF.
You back those ones.
Israel has also targeted and killed around 40,000 people yet this you also back.

p.s. Your article headline is bullshit that you couldn't even bother linking to for fear that reality would get in the way. With Egypt and Qatar, Israel put together a ceasefire offer that the US and Arab league felt was legit and fair. Hamas replied by hardening their positions but stating they had an agreement. The reality is Israel repeatedly accepting deals with Hamas refusing. Hell, Hamas just demanded air drops of aid be stopped. Seems they're more interested in posting pictures of needy people than actually helping them.

Hamas urges halt to airdrops of aid in Gaza after two killed

Hamas on Thursday called for an end to airdrops of aid after two Palestinians were killed in northern Gaza when a aid pallet crashed into a warehouse after its parachute failed to open.

www.france24.com

The Israeli position is they want a pause in the genocide where Hamas returns all hostages and then Israel goes back to the genocide.
The Hamas call is for an end to the genocide in three stages.

You back genocide, not peace, clearly.
You would prefer more genocide, not the end of it.

I'm sure this would be you if you were in Israel, not brave enough to fight but mean enough to try to starve 2 million refugees.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1788575676976513245

 

[Frankfooter]

Their demands are even more Palestinian prisoners released, even more Palestinians convicted of capital crimes released and offering even fewer of their hostages. Israel has conceded many things in the negotiations because that's how negotiations work while Hamas keeps demanding more because peace is not in their interests. Hamas needs the civilians to protect them and need their suffering to push their narrative so of course they reject anything that would help their people.

The sticking point is that Israel wants a pause for the return of hostages and then a return to genocide.
Hamas wants a permanent ceasefire.

By backing the Israeli position make it clear you want more genocide.

This was in the West Bank.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1788570484981858793

 

[Valcazar]

Or you demand a guarantee from Biden.

What kind of guarantee?

I think you are being picayune here, playing semantics.
Nobody can ever guarantee to control the acts of any other person, that is not the ask.
The ask is to promise to pressure Netanyahu to not attack Rafah.

That's not a guarantee, though.
I don't understand why you would use a word that so obviously doesn't mean what you say.

If all you want is "pressure", then stop saying "guarantee".

No, I still think the US should use that pressure to force a ceasefire today.
But given that Genocide Joe thinks he's on some holy path, getting him to promise to use those powers to at least limit one element of the genocide is something.

So we aren't at "pressure" anymore.
Biden should "force a ceasefire".

So everything up to invading and bombing Israel is on the table if that's what is required?

By the way, how do you think Genocide Joe justifies his position when as a catholic the pope has repeatedly called for a ceasefire?

Why do you think Biden obeys the Pope?

 

[Frankfooter]

What kind of guarantee?
That's not a guarantee, though.
I don't understand why you would use a word that so obviously doesn't mean what you say.
If all you want is "pressure", then stop saying "guarantee".

Guarantee is the correct word here, given we are talking politics.
A promise is worthless, a guarantee worth way more even if its not the legal definition.

So we aren't at "pressure" anymore.
Biden should "force a ceasefire".
So everything up to invading and bombing Israel is on the table if that's what is required?

No, no more 'interventions' or bombing.
Yesterday Biden withheld some bombs going to Israel, today the GOP is practically calling him a traitor and the government that clearly would prefer rump is now threatening him as well. Netanyahu declares he'll go rogue state without the US. All for a couple of stalled deliveries while they have way too many bombs for Gaza already.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1788977247048647080

Why do you think Biden obeys the Pope?

Did I use the word 'obey'?

 

[Valcazar]

Guarantee is the correct word here, given we are talking politics.
A promise is worthless, a guarantee worth way more even if its not the legal definition.

Do you even think about what you are saying?
A guarantee is backed by something.
You are the one who said all they wanted was a promise to exert pressure.

What guarantee do you want from Biden and how will it be backed?

Do you want a security guarantee - where the US promises to prevent Israel from ever exerting military force in Gaza again?
(Security guarantees are supposed to be backed with the use of force, as I am sure you are well aware.)

Do you want a specific guarantee of "If Israel does X, they will face sanctions and economic reprisals"?

What guarantee do you want?

Is it limited to Rafah?
Is it territorial?
What triggers?

No, no more 'interventions' or bombing.
Yesterday Biden withheld some bombs going to Israel, today the GOP is practically calling him a traitor and the government that clearly would prefer rump is now threatening him as well. Netanyahu declares he'll go rogue state without the US. All for a couple of stalled deliveries while they have way too many bombs for Gaza already.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1788977247048647080

Which is why you think Trump should be elected, I know.
Biden isn't doing anything and therefore Trump and the GOP will be better.

But is this a guarantee?
No.

So what do you want as a guarantee?

Did I use the word 'obey'?

Just implied it - since as a Catholic he is supposed to be concerned about what the pope thinks.
Considering he also supports freedom of choice despite Catholic teaching, and gay marriage, I don't think Biden is too concerned about the Pope.

Of course, you are implying Biden and the Pope are in disagreement.

 

[Frankfooter]

Do you even think about what you are saying?
A guarantee is backed by something.
You are the one who said all they wanted was a promise to exert pressure.

What guarantee do you want from Biden and how will it be backed?

Do you want a security guarantee - where the US promises to prevent Israel from ever exerting military force in Gaza again?
(Security guarantees are supposed to be backed with the use of force, as I am sure you are well aware.)

Do you want a specific guarantee of "If Israel does X, they will face sanctions and economic reprisals"?

What guarantee do you want?

Is it limited to Rafah?
Is it territorial?
What triggers?

You want a guarantee in a legal sense, a contract with terms and penalties.
We are talking politics here.

Which is why you think Trump should be elected, I know.
Biden isn't doing anything and therefore Trump and the GOP will be better.

I don't want either elected, really.
Do you? Wait, you do.

But is this a guarantee?
No.
So what do you want as a guarantee?

If there had to be a contract with legal terms, cease all arms sales, cease all funding and allow all UN resolutions.
Would that happen, not a chance.

Just implied it - since as a Catholic he is supposed to be concerned about what the pope thinks.
Considering he also supports freedom of choice despite Catholic teaching, and gay marriage, I don't think Biden is too concerned about the Pope.

Of course, you are implying Biden and the Pope are in disagreement.

The pope called repeatedly for a ceasefire, Biden pays lip service will working the system to send more bombs. Though now he's paused that, showing he knows he can pressure Netanyahu he just doesn't want to.

 

[Valcazar]

You want a guarantee in a legal sense, a contract with terms and penalties.
We are talking politics here.

No.
We are talking international relations and treaties.

Unless you are seriously saying you just want him to use the word "guarantee" instead of "promise".
Which is kind of nuts.

I don't want either elected, really.
Do you? Wait, you do.

One of the two will be elected.
That's the reality.
Therefore one must choose between the two unless you are advocating for overthrow of the United States government.

If there had to be a contract with legal terms, cease all arms sales, cease all funding and allow all UN resolutions.
Would that happen, not a chance.

So the guarantee would be "Don't go into Rafah or we will cease all arm sales and all fundings and vote against you in all future UN resolutions"?

That's what you think it would take for the US to stop Israel?
You also think it would never happen?

The pope called repeatedly for a ceasefire, Biden pays lip service will working the system to send more bombs. Though now he's paused that, showing he knows he can pressure Netanyahu he just doesn't want to.

The pope did.
Under what terms, might I ask?

 

[Frankfooter]

No.
We are talking international relations and treaties.

Unless you are seriously saying you just want him to use the word "guarantee" instead of "promise".
Which is kind of nuts.

No, you use the word 'guarantee'' during talks so that when its put down the goals are not aspirational, but dictated.

One of the two will be elected.
That's the reality.
Therefore one must choose between the two unless you are advocating for overthrow of the United States government.

If they are both still around in Nov, if rump isn't in jail, if rump's dementia doesn't get noticeably worse, if no other global event/recession/coup/war/plague happens. If there isn't a mass movement around Jill Stein or RKF's brain worm comes back and leads him to a coup.

Its still in the future.

So the guarantee would be "Don't go into Rafah or we will cease all arm sales and all fundings and vote against you in all future UN resolutions"?

That's what you think it would take for the US to stop Israel?
You also think it would never happen?

Netanyahu's desperation and evil still surprises me. So what would it take to stop him? Maybe not the US at this point, maybe it has to be his own people, either his army or the not totally insane parts of his government. Things keep changing, and not for the better.

‘Netanyahu has become the least trusted man in Israeli politics’

“It’s clear the [Israeli army] and Netanyahu are not on the same page. Netanyahu is spoiling for a fight with President Biden for political reasons, while the [Israeli army] is making sure its [American] counterparts know the general staff in Israel is moderate,” Oren told Al Jazeera.

“That means if given a direct order to go into Rafah, the military will execute, but they’ll do their best to recommend other options.”

He noted Netanyahu faces opposition within his cabinet from moderates.

“Netanyahu cannot go it alone. The other ministers are restraining him. Obviously, he is playing for his political survival and, therefore, he needs the war to go on. If he doesn’t go into Rafah there is no pretext for him to prolong the war. And that is why Netanyahu has become the least trusted man in Israeli politics – and perhaps Israel itself,” said Oren.

The pope did.
Under what terms, might I ask?

Probably every goes to hell unless there is a ceasefire followed by three Hail Mary's.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1788252019326640362

 

[Valcazar]

No, you use the word 'guarantee'' during talks so that when its put down the goals are not aspirational, but dictated.

At this point you are going to need to give a concrete example of what you think you are talking about when you say "guarantee".

I won't even ask you for the nth time what you want Biden to guarantee.

Give me an example from another situation that explains your position when you say you want a guarantee in an international relations talk.
Because at this point we seem to be talking about very different things but you seem to be thinking of something specific and not just rambling so just point me to it so I can figure out what you mean.

If they are both still around in Nov, if rump isn't in jail, if rump's dementia doesn't get noticeably worse, if no other global event/recession/coup/war/plague happens. If there isn't a mass movement around Jill Stein or RKF's brain worm comes back and leads him to a coup.

Its still in the future.

There will be no mass movement around Jill Stein.
But your whole argument here is therefore "you need to vote based on the actual circumstances happening".

Which is, again, my whole fucking point.

Netanyahu's desperation and evil still surprises me. So what would it take to stop him? Maybe not the US at this point, maybe it has to be his own people, either his army or the not totally insane parts of his government. Things keep changing, and not for the better.

‘Netanyahu has become the least trusted man in Israeli politics’
“It’s clear the [Israeli army] and Netanyahu are not on the same page. Netanyahu is spoiling for a fight with President Biden for political reasons, while the [Israeli army] is making sure its [American] counterparts know the general staff in Israel is moderate,” Oren told Al Jazeera.
“That means if given a direct order to go into Rafah, the military will execute, but they’ll do their best to recommend other options.”
He noted Netanyahu faces opposition within his cabinet from moderates.
“Netanyahu cannot go it alone. The other ministers are restraining him. Obviously, he is playing for his political survival and, therefore, he needs the war to go on. If he doesn’t go into Rafah there is no pretext for him to prolong the war. And that is why Netanyahu has become the least trusted man in Israeli politics – and perhaps Israel itself,” said Oren.

Have I been arguing Netanyahu is doing the right thing?

Probably every goes to hell unless there is a ceasefire followed by three Hail Mary's.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1788252019326640362

Just dodging the question, I see.
None.
(This was December by the way)
He called for peace and a return of the hostages.
No details.

 

[mandrill]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1788963150504624218

 

[basketcase]

Hamas likely targeted 300-600 civilians on Oct 7 but there were no rapes by Hamas, there is no evidence.
...

Except the evidence that you refuse to accept. You will continue to deny Hamas members raping Jews even if Sinwar was on camera personally demanding women be raped and doing it himself.

But this is huge as you finally admit that Hamas targeted civilians.

 

[basketcase]

The sticking point is that Israel wants a pause for the return of hostages and then a return to genocide.
Hamas wants a permanent ceasefire.
...

Bullshit on both cases. Israel wants Hamas destroyed. I'm sure Netanyahu would be much happier if Hamas stopped hiding behind civilians and engaged in direct warfare. And Hamas doesn't want a permanent ceasefire since that would mean accepting permanent peace alongside Israel. There was a permanent ceasefire before Oct 7 but Hamas felt that they could get a win by targeting Israeli civilians and hoped Israel wouldn't strike back heavily. They simply want Israel to stop diminishing their strength so they can build up for another attack. And yes, their leadership has repeatedly stated their aims are war until Israel is gone.

 

[Frankfooter]

At this point you are going to need to give a concrete example of what you think you are talking about when you say "guarantee".

I won't even ask you for the nth time what you want Biden to guarantee.

Give me an example from another situation that explains your position when you say you want a guarantee in an international relations talk.
Because at this point we seem to be talking about very different things but you seem to be thinking of something specific and not just rambling so just point me to it so I can figure out what you mean.

An example.
Report: Hamas okays 1st phase of hostage deal, after US guarantees IDF withdrawal from Gaza once all phases completed

There will be no mass movement around Jill Stein.
But your whole argument here is therefore "you need to vote based on the actual circumstances happening".

Which is, again, my whole fucking point.

Yes, we just disagree on which circumstances are more important right now.

Just dodging the question, I see.
None.
(This was December by the way)
He called for peace and a return of the hostages.
No details.

Pope Francis calls for a ceasefire in the Holy Land - Vatican News

Pope Francis prays for an end to the violence in the Holy Land, especially in Gaza where a humanitarian catastrophe has unfolded, as well as for the ...

www.vaticannews.va

Pope Francis calls for ceasefire in Gaza and Ukraine in Easter message

 

[Frankfooter]

Except the evidence that you refuse to accept. You will continue to deny Hamas members raping Jews even if Sinwar was on camera personally demanding women be raped and doing it himself.

But this is huge as you finally admit that Hamas targeted civilians.

I have never denied Hamas targeted civilians on Oct 7, the question still remains how many were killed by Hamas and how many by the IDF's Hannibal Doctrine.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1787557179320397976

 

[Frankfooter]

Israel wants Hamas destroyed.

Yes, that is why there is no ceasefire and why the hostages haven't been returned.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1789026306761650271

 

[shack]

Pope Francis calls for ceasefire in Gaza and Ukraine in Easter message

If you stand by the Pope's messages, then you are anti-abortion. Are you a part-time left winger?

 

[Frankfooter]

If you stand by the Pope's messages, then you are anti-abortion. Are you a part-time left winger?

I'm not catholic, shack, this is a question to Genocide Joe's religious beliefs.

Do you back torturing prisoners too?
Binding their hands so tight they end up being amputated?
Is this part of your beliefs?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1788886211798368357

 

[Valcazar]

An example.
Report: Hamas okays 1st phase of hostage deal, after US guarantees IDF withdrawal from Gaza once all phases completed

So an unnamed source reporting an unverified agreement?

But ok, so in other words, if I understand, you want something that the US is backing up Israel's agreement.
The US puts some credibility on the line in some concrete way in the agreement so that Hamas doesn't have to trust Israel.

Or, is it your idea that this works where the US threatens Israel, since in this report Israel didn't agree this but somehow the US "guaranteed" Hamas they would make it happen anyway?

In other words, what appears to be the issue between us is which comes first.
Does the US guarantee something to Hamas and then force Israel to accept it? Or does the US act as an assurance of something agreed to?

Yes, we just disagree on which circumstances are more important right now.

*sigh*

Dammit.
I thought you had actually had a breakthrough and understood something.

Pope Francis calls for a ceasefire in the Holy Land - Vatican News

Pope Francis prays for an end to the violence in the Holy Land, especially in Gaza where a humanitarian catastrophe has unfolded, as well as for the ...

www.vaticannews.va

Pope Francis calls for ceasefire in Gaza and Ukraine in Easter message

Exactly.
No details.
Just praying for peace.
People should stop killing each other.
Something everyone vaguely agrees with but differs on the details.