Racism or sexual assault

RTRD

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Sorry Dude...

tboy said:
MLAM:

SOrry dude, but you're wrong. I watched that piece by 60 minutes personally so I can attest to the fact that a) the report was accurate insofar as what was shown during the report and b) the company did in fact go under as per a followup episode of 60 minutes. I watch the show almost without fail. So your BS about it being internet trash is, well, just trash initself.

As for racism vs persecution. Sorry, but this thread was started and went to racism when some of the parents were playing the race card. BTW, if you didn't know, if you are persecuted because of your race, that is racism, capice?
..but I just don't believe you. Until you can provide a link or something else that I can read for myself, it is bullshit. I have seen with some of the bigot on this board will post and call truth (not saying you are one...yet). What you have described is ILLEGAL. So either you have your details wrong, or you are pulling it out of your ass. And I know a bit more abotu U.S. employment law than you - TRUST ME.

In regards to what direction the thread went - that has nothing to do with the post you were referencing. The post asked "Has anyone been more PERSECUTED than the Jews?". The response...again without me personally saying I agree or disagree...was "Yes". And there started the debate within the debate. Nothing about racism there.

And yes, if you are persecuted because of your race, that is racism, but you can be persecuted without it having ANYTHING to do with your race...capice?
 

tboy

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MLAM:

as for you believing me or not, that's your problem not mine.....and my time is too valuable to waste searching for info on something that occurred years ago. As for you knowing more than I about US labour laws, well goody for you. Being Canadian I don't (frankly) give a rat's ass or a pinch of raccoon shit about US labour laws as they don't apply to anything I do, who I employ, what I pay them etc. As for the piece being real? it was aired sometime in the early 90's or late 80's. I remember it clearly because when they interviewed the owner he was dumbfounded to be called racist when all those he employed were of a visible minority.

I don't know what the laws are in the US but according to some of the Bullshit cases that have been filed and won lately, fining someone $120,000 K for discrimination isn't that unreasonable. Especially when some dipshit lawyer will represent someone who is suing McD's because they got fat eating there...
 

Fabulous

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back to the case, from the star newspaper:

Hard lessons at Cardinal McGuigan
Nov. 20, 2005. 08:11 AM
MORGAN CAMPBELL, LESLIE SCRIVENER AND CATHERINE PORTER
STAFF REPORTERS


Jeffrey had just finished a Grade 11 math quiz Monday morning, when his class was interrupted by knocking.

The principal, Jim Matthews, was at the door. He told Jeffrey to step into the hall.

The 16-year-old boy had no idea what was about to happen Ñ to him, the school and the community. He had no way of knowing that the next 24 hours would change his future, shatter the reputation of his school, batter a tentative peace between police and his neighbourhood, and ignite charges of racism.

"When I came outside, I saw so much cops," the bony teen said from his home in an interview last week. (His name has been changed in compliance with the Youth Criminal Justice Act.)

While his teacher watched through the open door, the young man was handcuffed by officers and marched down to the school's office.

Along with another 11 boys and two girls, he was loaded into a cruiser and carted to the police station, where he spent the night confused and uncomfortable, being searched, fingerprinted, and locked in a cell until the next morning.

Jeffrey still doesn't know why he was arrested.

"I asked what they were arresting me for, and they said `criminal harassment,'" he said.

But he knows that it had to do with two similar arrests at the school the week before and the chilling allegations by a 16-year-old student that she had been sexually assaulted and harassed by a group of young boys for more than a year.

In total, police arrested 16 students from James Cardinal McGuigan Catholic High School over six days. Two were charged with sexual assault and forcible confinement, having to do with two alleged assaults. In one, police say a 17-year-old boy forced the girl into both a school stairwell and washroom where he sexually assaulted her last month. In the other, a 15-year-old student is alleged to have followed the girl into the washroom of a fast food restaurant, locked the door and then demanded sexual favours before a restaurant employee arrived and the girl was able to escape.

Police haven't released details about the reported involvement of Jeffrey and the other students, other than to say that the two young women threatened the girl with bodily harm and the other young men criminally harassed her Ñ which, according to the Criminal Code, could include taunts, threats, verbal abuse or following her.

But Jeffrey and others maintain their innocence.

"I don't know how I got caught up," said Jeffrey. "I don't even talk to her."
 

Fabulous

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cont...

LESSON 1

Race is a factor even if it isn't
The subtext to the uproar that followed the arrests is colour. The victim is white. All of the accused are black.

Instead of feeling pity for the girl, the surrounding community has reacted with rage.

They call the police ham-fisted, and worse Ñ racist. They wonder: If this had been a black girl and white boys, would police have reacted with charges so quickly? Would they have arrested the youth in their school, not allowing their parents the courtesy of taking them to the police station without the glare of flashing cameras and the wide eyes of their peers?

"I don't think if it was a black (accuser), it would have reached that," said Jeffrey's mother. "And take 14 white people out of school? I don't think so."

Some even say police broke the law. "One of the most important things, especially in dealing with young offenders, is anonymity. For the police to go into the school, arrest them in front of other students and basically out them in front of other peers... that flies in the face of the Youth Criminal Justice Act," said Royland Moriah, a policy research lawyer with the African Canadian Legal Clinic.

The police explanation of why they arrested the students at school comes down to logistics. The concern was that the youths Ñ many of them friends Ñ would have notified one another on cellphones or pagers, and fled before police could arrest them. Then the safety of the victim and witnesses would be jeopardized.

"We believe we made the right decision, and we stand by that," said Inspector Tom McIlhone, the second in command of 31 Division. "Everyone knows everyone anyways. Where in the world could we arrest somebody and be sure not to breach (their) identity?"

Police have gone into schools to make arrests before, he said. In 1991, Metro police swooped into a southeast Scarborough high school and arrested three 17-year-olds after a mob swarming and robbery at a local flea market. In that case, all of the officers were in uniform Ñ to make a point, McIlhone said.

In this case, police tried to be as discrete as possible, he said. They parked their cruisers away from the school. They arrived after the beginning of the second period, around 11 a.m., so there wouldn't be many students in the hall to witness the arrests.

"We could have done this another way. We could have came and dropped 20 police cars in front of the school and everybody rushing around and grabbing them out of class. That's just the inappropriate way to do it. We tried to do this with as little embarrassment as possible for the people involved," he said.

The method would have been the same given the charges at any school across the city, McIlhone added. And the treatment wouldn't have altered if the victim was black, and her alleged tormentors white, South Asian or any other colour. Before the arrests were made last Monday morning, the officers had names only Ñ they didn't know the ethnic background of the students before each one stepped into the hallway to be arrested, he said.

"We're here to protect the public, in particular the youth, they're the most vulnerable. It matters not to us what the race culture is," McIlhone said.

Outspoken community members and the mothers of the accused think otherwise.

"Race does play a factor in it as far as I'm concerned," said Toronto District School Board trustee and local community activist Stephnie Payne. "It begs the question."
 

Fabulous

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cont...

LESSON 2

Bad things can happen in good schools

James Cardinal McGuigan Catholic High School stands near the corner of Jane and Keele Sts., in the shadow of what is known as the Jane-Finch corridor.

As the only Catholic school in the area, many of the teenagers from the highrises on San Romanoway at Jane and Finch make the two-kilometre trek to McGuigan each morning.

Windswept and anonymous, the corner is a postcard of the ailments that plague Toronto's inner suburbs. Giant paved roads whiz with traffic, separating towering brick apartment buildings and small, desolate malls. Tucked between York University and Downsview Park, green spaces in the area are lined with electricity towers. People line up for the bus Ñ distances here are too far to walk.

Added to the sprawl is crime and poverty. The median household income is $37,000, $18,000 below the city's average. Unemployment is high, education levels low, the teen pregnancy rate almost double the city's.

The area also claims many of the city's most rundown buildings. More than half of the people who live in them are visible minorities, many of them black.

Given the desperate conditions, it's no surprise that gunfire flashes around the neighbourhood. From early July to the end of October this year, there were four shootings in the area. Just last week, a man was shot on the residential streets southeast of the school.
 

Fabulous

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cont....

As a result, the Jane-Finch area has become a hot spot of resentment toward the police. It's a spot where many grieving black mothers are interviewed about the death of their sons, and angry black residents lash out at their treatment at the hands of officers.

Despite outside tensions, the orange brick walls and adjacent portables of Cardinal McGuigan have offered a sanctuary.

Opened in 1982, the school was started by Franciscan Fathers and named after the first cardinal in English-speaking Canada. Its motto is Ambulate in Dilectione Ñ walk in fraternal charity.

One of the founding principles of the school was the teaching of St. Francis, the son of a wealthy cloth merchant who cast off his life of privilege to live in poverty and loving sacrifice.

All students interviewed by the Star said they felt safe in its halls and adjoining portables.

"Nobody in our school is part of a gang. This year we had one fight, and those people aren't allowed in the school any more," said a Grade 11 student named Nicki. "There are no weapons, there is no violence. This is really a good school."

Inside its crowded halls, the student body reflects the surrounding community. Flipping through the pages of last year's yearbook, about 40 per cent of the faces are black. An almost equal number are white. The rest are Latino, Middle Eastern, Asian and South Asian.

At the school's multicultural day last year, 67 cultural groups were represented.

Students and teachers at McGuigan said race has never been an issue. Outside the school, students gather in clusters segregated only by gender Ñ black girls, white girls, Hispanic girls all giggle together on their way back from lunch.

Most of the staff is white, with Italian names. But even one of the few black teachers there said he's never encountered racism in the school. Others agree.

"We've dedicated our careers to this community," said Paul Bergin, a social science teacher who has taught at McGuigan for 18 years. "Obviously it's a neighbourhood with many different cultures, and that's why we're here Ñ because we want to be."

But the wall that had separated the culture of the community and the culture of the school came crashing down last week.

A school meeting hosted as a debriefing for parents turned into an angry venting session, with black mothers shouting down white officials on a stage with cries of "racism."

"We're not animals, we're human beings," yelled one woman.

Much of it was aimed at the police for the way they handled the arrest. "I saw my classmates humiliated and degraded," said Grade 12 student Dianne Escobar.

When a white woman took the microphone and claimed that her 14-year-old son had been offered sexual favours from the young victim, the gym went wild. People jumped to their feet and danced in the aisles, shouting "racism" Ñ the underlying implication that it was only because the boys were black that they were facing criminal charges.

The tension was so high, one white mother found herself shaking in her seat.

"I felt like what it must have been like to be black 30 years ago, when you were told to sit at the back of the bus," said Catherine Burger. "I am really afraid for my daughter Ñ not just her emotional safety, but her physical safety."

Given the background, police should have been more sensitive, said legal-clinic lawyer Moriah. "We've had problems of racial profiling, of overpolicing, of harassment, harsher sentences, harsher bail conditions and overrepresentation in the criminal justice system. All of this should be in their minds when they're going through these procedures and thinking how they should go about arresting these children. You have to think about what the history is and take that into account when you make these decisions."

The local division has been working to bridge relations with the community. Officers play hockey and soccer regularly with the local youth, McIlhone said. They've implemented mentoring programs. And, before making the arrests last week, they did look at the broader situation.

But at the end of the day, "we have to police up here," he said.

"Given all the circumstances, I don't believe there's anything else we could have done. I don't think things would have turned out good no matter what we did."
 

Fabulous

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cont...

LESSON 3
In all the din and outrage over the last week, the one voice that has been deafeningly silent is that of the victim: the 16-year-old girl, who after more than a year of allegedly being assaulted, finally came forward.

In the classroom, vicious rumours abound. Many students are saying the same things as their parents. That the boys were only arrested because they are black. That there hadn't been any assaults. And, most of all, that the girl wasn't a victim at all.

"That girl, she has so much attitude," said one girl, surrounded by friends outside the school.

No one but police has publicly taken her side. Parents of the accused say she was a willing participant. Judgments are made about why she waited for so long to come forward.

Some of her classmates said she was outspoken and a sports groupie. "Why did she hang around all those black guys?" asked Jeffrey's outraged mother. "What was her purpose?"

"There's a lot of name-calling going on," said one female student of the school, referring to teenage slang that casts some students as "freaks" or "brainers." In the warped logic of teenage slang, the latter term has evolved from meaning someone who is studious to someone who doles out oral sex.

"People are saying bad stuff about the girl. Some people think she wanted it. One disgusting thing somebody said was, `Look at the way she dresses.'"

The girl hasn't returned to the school since the arrest, although police said she initially wanted to. When reached at her family's condominium, she told a Star reporter she didn't want to speak.

While students say she had friends, they aren't willing to talk. One contacted at home denied associating with her.

One acquaintance said the intimidation factor has been overwhelming.

"I've had people asking me if I was friends with her. It's intimidating," said the 16-year-old girl. "If they hate her so much, they may hate you, too."

In the middle of the raucous parent meeting at the school last week, McIlhone reminded the crowd: "Keep in mind we have a victim and witnesses who can't come to school."

He pointed out that no one knows why the girl hadn't come forward sooner; no one knows her situation, or whether, under the surface, she has self-esteem issues.

"You can't really understand unless you've walked into somebody's shoes, and thank God, there's very few people who have walked in this young girl's shoes," he said.

"I've had almost zero support for the victim," he added. "This victim has made a huge step, she's very courageous, she should be very proud of herself."

The message the community is sending to future victims is damning, he said.

"They're going to be afraid they're going to get this backlash. The community is almost passing sentence on the victim before we even have a trial," McIlhone said.

The 16-year-old acquaintance worries about the same thing.

"Now I'm scared that if something like this happens again, some kind of harassment, people will be scared that people won't believe them, and they won't be able to come back to school."
 

Fabulous

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cont...

LESSON 4

Teachers don't know everything
In the blame game that has erupted since last Monday's arrests, few people have been spared. The principal was targeted by parents, including a group of mothers who started a petition, demanding he resign.

"Mr. Matthews didn't support and protect us," one student declared into the microphone at the public meeting.

The teachers have been lambasted by students, parents, and even politicians.

"There's a serious supervision problem in that school," Frank Klees, the conservative education critic announced in Queen's Park last week, linking the event to decreased funds in the provincial education budget given to supervision.

The Catholic school board's director of education also questioned whether teachers had the skills to recognize the signs of distress among their students.

"Are all our staff properly prepared to identify situations that could in fact be harassment or assault?" Kevin Kobus asked last week. "I'm not convinced of that at this stage."

If this kind of behaviour were happening in their school, right under the administration's noses, how could they not see it? How could this happen at the school, period?

Those are questions that many have been mulling all week.

"People here are obviously quite hurt by everything. We're still trying to cope with what's gone down," said Bergin, the staff union representative for the school's 63 teachers and support staff.

"I can't explain it. I really can't."

Even Matthews, the school's principal, was baffled.

"I'm greatly saddened. I'm confused. I didn't like the situation one bit," he told angry parents during the public meeting. "I was taking my direction from the police."

Teachers contacted by the Star who taught the victim said they knew her as a confident woman, not susceptible to peer pressure.

"There was no sign. I had a good rapport with her in class. And there was no sign of anything. All of the staff are asking ourselves...," said one veteran teacher. "There's no way, if anybody had known this was happening, we'd let it go on."

Some of the incidents are said to have taken place after school hours, when students no longer require passes to venture the halls, and most teachers are no longer present.

"How would we know?" said Bergin. "Obviously, if we see bullying, we approach kids to address it. But if a kid doesn't come to us and basically tell us... "

Most of the school halls are equipped with cameras. Police have said they examined videotapes before making the arrests. But the tapes are checked only after a suspicious occurrence is reported, and the cameras are there to protect the students from intruders.

"They're not there to spy on the kids," Bergin said.
 

Fabulous

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cont...from todays star newspaper

LESSON 5

Perception is reality
Cardinal McGuigan is not the first choice of many families in the northwest part of the city, teachers and the school trustee admit.

It has a reputation as a technical school. Special education and ESL students form a large part of the population; 22 percent have special needs.

It doesn't have a strong academic record. Only nine percent of McGuigan's Grade Nines reached the provincial standard in applied math, compared to 20 percent in the Catholic board in Toronto, and less than half the Grade 10 students passed the province-wide literacy test.

"There are other schools they'd prefer," said Catholic school trustee Mary Cicogna, referring to local parents.

"Parents felt St. Basil's, for example, had more to offer. If a student is doing well, that's the school they'd send them to."

The school has also had to contend with the stigma of its surroundings.

"It's determined by our geography," said Angela Convertini, a former principal who left two years ago after being seconded to Loretto College at the University of Toronto.

"People have a perception of Jane-Finch that is so skewed. There are decent, hard-working people striving to make a living. We tried to celebrate that, and I tried to get media to come in and change the perception of geography we were up against. I couldn't even get the local paper to come in. Now you can't get them to go away."

The precise location of the school is important to some students: "It's Finch and Keele, not Jane and Finch," one boy said emphatically last week.

A successful effort has been mounted to dispel the school's reputation. New neat uniforms were introduced last year to give a good impression.

"Perception is important," Cicogna said. She's been visiting feeder elementary schools and speaking to Grade 8 students, promoting the school. This year, enrolment increased. And the school is preparing for a $10 million expansion, to eliminate surrounding portables.

But in the shadow of last week's events, will anybody care? "In the last five to six years, we've tried to do a lot to improve the image of the school," said one veteran teacher. "Something like this has kicked us right back to the bottom."

That's not all the school has had to contend with. Three days after the arrests, Grade 12 student Anna Zarnock was found dead with her boyfriend inside a parked car, apparently the victim of accidental carbon monoxide poisoning.

The school's awards ceremony was postponed, and instead of proud parents, a fleet of grief counsellors rushed into the building.

Meanwhile, the teachers have to continue teaching; the school year isn't even halfway over. Cicogna hopes to stage some morale-boosting events at McGuigan. There's talk of a community mass and visits by local celebrities and basketball stars.

As early as this week, most of the 16 accused will have been placed in other Catholic schools, awaiting their trials.

The victim is also heading to a new school.

"I hope some good will come out of all this bad," said Burger, the mother of a McGuigan student.

"That's why I didn't want to pull my daughter out of the school. With all this media focus, they'll try to fix this school up, hopefully."
 

Esco!

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It doesnt matter if she was the world biggest groupie, a huge slut or a porn star in the making.
When a girls says no that means you have to stop, otherwise its called sexual assault.
And thats not just my interpretation its also the letter of the law
 

franky66

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Esco! said:
It doesnt matter if she was the world biggest groupie, a huge slut or a porn star in the making.
When a girls says no that means you have to stop, otherwise its called sexual assault.
And thats not just my interpretation its also the letter of the law
what are you talking about? Are you privy to the nitty gritty details of this case? How many times did she say no? Did she do so for each alleged attacker? Remember this wasnt a gangbang so how many of the alleged attackers did she say no to? How do you know she even said no? Is it possible that she liked and gave it up freely to a few of the alleged attackers and didnt give it to a few of the others who were just piggy back riding off the success of the previous guys? Considering that is it possible that only 5 or so are guilty and not all the alleged? How do we know she was scorned and isnt exacting her 'revenge' on them.

As far as I am concerned we all dont know the half about this case so we should keep quiet until ALL the sordid details come out before we convict or acquit.

Let us wait and see. Time will tell and as time goes by the TRUTH will come out.

What was that about how many sides to a story there are?
 

booboobear

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MLAM said:
"TO MY EAR this rings closer to the truth".

Again, apparently everyone here except you understood that was an expression of my opinion that I believed one scenario as more likely than the other.

My "attitude" at the time of the post had nothing to do with anybody deserving anything - it was that I doubted that the (alleged) events took place in such a manner as to warrant an arrest. However (and I posted this as well) since there have now been charges filed I am a bit more willing to believe something untoward has happened.

Really...now you have me intrigued...is this an English comprehension problem for you or are you just not very smart? I mean, it appears that unless a person writes at the 3rd grade level for you salient points just pass right by...
I know a lot of people exactly like you famous backtrackers . " To my ear " what does that mean ? At least have the guts to admit you said something , like I said I know your kind never admit anything . As far as comprehension I understand you quite well , seems you have no respect for this women but more for the black men charged.
 

RTRD

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Sep 26, 2003
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Sorry...

booboobear said:
" To my ear " what does that mean ?
..I'm not in the mood to tutor on the finer points of English colloquialism. You are on the internet, look it up.

I'm done with you. If you want to blame me for you lack understanding regarding the nuisances of the English language feel free. The only other explanation is that you are just being an ass (which I would not put past you) in which case further debate would be a waste of my time (you know..."only a fool argues with a fool" and all that...)

I used to be amused…really. I was amazed at how pathetic and predictable you were. But now I am bored and annoyed.

I already knew you are a sad and petty man. With every post you only further prove it though…
 

RTRD

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Nope..

tboy said:
MLAM:

as for you believing me or not, that's your problem not mine.....and my time is too valuable to waste searching for info on something that occurred years ago. As for you knowing more than I about US labour laws, well goody for you. Being Canadian I don't (frankly) give a rat's ass or a pinch of raccoon shit about US labour laws as they don't apply to anything I do, who I employ, what I pay them etc. As for the piece being real? it was aired sometime in the early 90's or late 80's. I remember it clearly because when they interviewed the owner he was dumbfounded to be called racist when all those he employed were of a visible minority.

I don't know what the laws are in the US but according to some of the Bullshit cases that have been filed and won lately, fining someone $120,000 K for discrimination isn't that unreasonable. Especially when some dipshit lawyer will represent someone who is suing McD's because they got fat eating there...
...it isn't a problem - I will simply dismiss this as the fabricated bullshit that it is.

And...if you don’t' care about U.S. labor laws, why the fuck did you bring this up? Exactly what did it have to do with teenage children, sexual harassment or anything else relevant to this thread. And where did the McDonald's reference come from? Gawd...you are reaching.

Oh yeah...I get it. Another bigoted accusation the Blacks have all the advantages.

Right. What was that...raccoon shit? Seems appropriate somehow...about the value of another bigots opinions.
 

Esco!

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franky66 said:
Are you privy to the nitty gritty details of this case? How many times did she say no? Did she do so for each alleged attacker? Remember this wasnt a gangbang so how many of the alleged attackers did she say no to? How do you know she even said no? Is it possible that she liked and gave it up freely to a few of the alleged attackers and didnt give it to a few of the others who were just piggy back riding off the success of the previous guys? Considering that is it possible that only 5 or so are guilty and not all the alleged? How do we know she was scorned and isnt exacting her 'revenge' on them.
We dont and thats exactly why we're gonna have a trial.
And I sincerely hope you're not on the jury :eek:
 

franky66

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Esco! said:
We dont and thats exactly why we're gonna have a trial.
And I sincerely hope you're not on the jury :eek:
If we dont know what happened why are you spekaing as if YOU yourself know?

I hope you dont have a job where too much logic is required.
 

booboobear

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MLAM said:
..I'm not in the mood to tutor on the finer points of English colloquialism. I'm done with you. If you want to blame me for you lack understanding regarding the nuisances of the English language feel free. I used to be amused…really. I was amazed at how pathetic and predictable you were. But now I am bored and annoyed.

I already knew you are a sad and petty man. With every post you only further prove it though…

You tutor me on English , now that's funny . I've never heard many english people say " to my ear " when making a comment maybe that's one of your expressions. Like I said though I think I know your type , rather than admit they are wrong some people either claim they didn't say something or resort to childish insults. Give it up my friend , I know where you sympathies are in this case and I think most people do as well.
 

RTRD

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You moron...

booboobear said:
You tutor me on English , now that's funny . I've never heard many english people say " to my ear " when making a comment maybe that's one of your expressions. Like I said though I think I know your type , rather than admit they are wrong some people either claim they didn't say something or resort to childish insults. Give it up my friend , I know where you sympathies are in this case and I think most people do as well.
...I'm not "HIDING" where my "sympathies" are...what, are now saying you're a rocket scienetist?

BTW..the English language isn't limited to use by people who are English...or wait...by "English people" you meant people who speak English, didn't you?

Ok...I'm back to being amused...you are a moron....
 

booboobear

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MLAM said:
...I'm not "HIDING" where my "sympathies" are...what, are now saying you're a rocket scienetist?

BTW..the English language isn't limited to use by people who are English...or wait...by "English people" you meant people who speak English, didn't you?

Ok...I'm back to being amused...you are a moron....

A moron ? childish childish . Oh by the way since you are pointing out the obvious difference between English people and english speaking people don't forget your sentence structure , I think you forgot " you " between are and now.
Also please check your spelling Mr . genius .
 
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