Israel at war

[Frankfooter]

Those things have to be negotiated. My point is that Palestinian sovereignty should be number 1 on the the priority list. May be some land swaps to enable a contiguous land needs to be agreed to. The alternative is perpetrual misery.

Israel does not have any incentive to agree to a 2 state or a 1 state solution. They have money, power, control and the patronage of the world's most powerful country that will go to any lengths including hurting their own countrymen, to protect Israel. The Palestinians are at a severe disadvantage and it is time to look at their reality and make the best out of it. I am not saying it is just or ideal. I am saying, what else can they do, to get Israel to agree?

Things like BDS take a long time to work. People are fundamentally uncaring so when you tell an American business to choose between money and the Palestinians, they are going to choose money. So I guess what I am saying is, aim for quick wins. And then negotiate from there.

But it sounds like you are suggesting they negotiate for permanent misery instead of perpetual.

In 2007 Israeli PM Olmert issued this warning:
In an interview with the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, Ehud Olmert said Israel was "finished" if it forced the Palestinians into a struggle for equal rights.If the two-state solution collapsed, he said, Israel would "face a South African-style struggle for equal voting rights, and as soon as that happens, the state of Israel is finished". Israel's supporters abroad would quickly turn against such a state, he said."The Jewish organisations, which were our power base in America, will be the first to come out against us because they will say they cannot support a state that does not support democracy and equal voting rights for all its residents," he said.

Those reports have come out and Israel has worked incredibly hard to keep them out of the mainstream. Add in charges at the ICJ and ICC and Israel becomes a pariah state. Already they've lost about half their support of US Jews and the support of most Americans and Canadians. Governments can't continue to be backing an apartheid state in trial for genocide.

For Palestinians this means not fighting for slightly better bantustans it means fighting for the end of zionism and its rule in Israel.
That is now coming.

 

[shack]

Ok, you have declared Palestinians are allowed full human rights.
The right to self determination
The right to self defence
The right of return

The devil is in the details. For example, no normal person would agree that self-defense means murdering 1,200 innocent civilians in a surprise terrorist attack.

Or that self-determination means voting in the elections of a country of which you are not a citizen.

Now you need to explain why you back...

Why do you back terrorism.
Why do you back denying your citizens free and fair elections.
Why do you back using human shields.
Why do you back executing people because of their sexual preferences.
Why do you back taking infants as hostages and then you back defying UN, ICC, ICJ orders to return those hostages immediately and unconditionally.

 

[Valcazar]

Sounds wishy washy to me. When faced with demands you cannot acquiesce to, just throw a committee at it and add more red tape, process complexity to it, so decisions can never get made and the status quo continues.

That is the complaint I see some people levelling.

 

[Klatuu]

The devil is in the details. For example, no normal person would agree that self-defense means murdering 1,200 innocent civilians in a surprise terrorist attack.

Or that self-determination means voting in the elections of a country of which you are not a citizen.


Why do you back terrorism.
Why do you back denying your citizens free and fair elections.
Why do you back using human shields.
Why do you back executing people because of their sexual preferences.
Why do you back taking infants as hostages and then you back defying UN, ICC, ICJ orders to return those hostages immediately and unconditionally.

The new South African talking.

 

[Klatuu]

But it sounds like you are suggesting they negotiate for permanent misery instead of perpetual.

In 2007 Israeli PM Olmert issued this warning:
In an interview with the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, Ehud Olmert said Israel was "finished" if it forced the Palestinians into a struggle for equal rights.If the two-state solution collapsed, he said, Israel would "face a South African-style struggle for equal voting rights, and as soon as that happens, the state of Israel is finished". Israel's supporters abroad would quickly turn against such a state, he said."The Jewish organisations, which were our power base in America, will be the first to come out against us because they will say they cannot support a state that does not support democracy and equal voting rights for all its residents," he said.

Those reports have come out and Israel has worked incredibly hard to keep them out of the mainstream. Add in charges at the ICJ and ICC and Israel becomes a pariah state. Already they've lost about half their support of US Jews and the support of most Americans and Canadians. Governments can't continue to be backing an apartheid state in trial for genocide.

For Palestinians this means not fighting for slightly better bantustans it means fighting for the end of zionism and its rule in Israel.
That is now coming.

Ditto on all of this.

I’ll add that the process started on Oct 7 is still unfolding and not a single development has been favorable to the McCountry.

From the travesty of the appalling performance of the IDF, the genocide of Palestinians, the exposed incessant lying of Israel, the awakening of the ICC and IJC, the loss of stature globally, the growing cost supporters are beginning to endure, the attack by Iran on Israel, the growing conflict with Hezbollah, the widening divisions within the Jewish community, the willingness of people around the world to express their revulsion with Israel’s action, the complete rejection of the manipulative use of the charge of antisemitism and the global student uprising…..Israel is a waning player.

 

[Klatuu]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1787143957249462641

 

[Frankfooter]

The devil is in the details. For example, no normal person would agree that self-defense means murdering 1,200 innocent civilians in a surprise terrorist attack.

Agreed, murdering 1,200 civilians, or in this case 300-600 civilians is not self defence.
Murdering 35,000 civilians, including 25,000 women and children is therefore also not self defence.

Or that self-determination means voting in the elections of a country of which you are not a citizen.

Yes, self determination means having a say in the country you live, including the rights of citizenship and citizens.

Why do you back terrorism.
Why do you back denying your citizens free and fair elections.
Why do you back using human shields.
Why do you back executing people because of their sexual preferences.
Why do you back taking infants as hostages and then you back defying UN, ICC, ICJ orders to return those hostages immediately and unconditionally.

I don't back any of those things.

Why do you back an illegal occupation?
Why do you back colonialism?
Why do you back apartheid?
Why do you back genocide?

 

[canada-man]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1787196153571787115

 

[Frankfooter]

Firstly, Israel is full of right wingers. There is not much room for left wing politics in Israel. Even the most liberal guy that gets elected to power, will never give up this idea of a Jewish ethnostate. That is reality.

Secondly, although a 1 state solution will be the most reasonable, there is no chance in hell it happens today. A 1 state solution is something that will maybe, be feasible in another 100 years. But right now, it is not possible. Neither will it have any support in Israel, nor the US.

So the only possible resolution that could maybe happen, and that is a huge maybe, is a 2 state solution.

And ICJ and ICC? They are useless. They always offer "middling" pronouncements, and even if they were to outright call out Israel, nothing will happen. An ICC arrest warrant? Useless again. There is no way, anyone can enforce anything, against any country. Israel does not care about being a pariah state because they have the US at their beck and call and most other western nations will fall in line behind their big brother. That is all they need.

Given all this, the end of Zionism is a lofty goal because the Palestinians themselves are not united under one movement and are severely disenfranchised and do not even have good advocates. Therefore, I think "get Israel off our backs" should be the number 1 priority even if it means just a slightly better Bantustan.

I disagree.

Take the ICC and ICJ. For countries like Canada and the EU, they won't be able to justify supporting a government or leaders charged with genocide. JT has already said he'll abide by ICC rulings. That means sanctions and that means more pressure towards the US, who largely stands alone already in their support of Israel.

Even going by your plan there is zero chance of Palestinians ever agreeing to that form for a two state solution. None. And why would they? They would gain nothing but to make the walls around the bantustans permanent and their opportunities to work behind Israeli lines disappear.

A couple of years ago the reports detailing Israeli apartheid came out, the last round of violence in 2021 was the start of Palestinian supporting being labelled as PLM and tied to BLM. This time the ground support is massive. Biden will lose the election over support of Israel, AIPAC is publicly hated and support for Israel limited to those over 65, with everyone under 30 understanding Israel to be apartheid and committing genocide.

How does zionism survive being associated with genocide now?

 

[Frankfooter]

Well, I guess we can hope! I guess I am a bit more cynical and pessimistic on this. Will Canada and EU sanction Israel? Will they go against big bro USA? I think not, but if they do, hey, I would love to be wrong!

Already we have the Greens and NDP calling out for Palestinian rights.
The liberals are pro Israeli but feeling the pressure, cue JT's statement about the ICC.

 

[Frankfooter]

I love this video.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1787153331086880887

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1787216820593676359

 

[shack]

This is how the end of South African apartheid started.

With American students setting up tents on campuses? I thought that it started this way.

Internal resistance to apartheid - Wikipedia

The new South African talking....

Call me what you wish, but I am talking the truth to you.

It was Geno's comment that was inaccurate.

 

[shack]

Agreed, murdering 1,200 civilians, or in this case 300-600 civilians is not self defence.
Murdering 35,000 civilians, including 25,000 women and children is therefore also not self defence.

Then why are Hamas using their own people as human shields as their method of self defense. Hamas intentionally triggered an enormous increase in Israeli aggression on Oct.7 after having built their military infrastructure directly alongside civilian populations, hospitals and schools.

Yes, self determination means having a say in the country you live, including the rights of citizenship and citizens.

Self-determination does not mean being automatically granted citizenship, the vote, healthcare etc.. Just like Kautilya said he did for Canada, certain rules, standards, conditions, tests etc. must be met. Every sovereign nation on the globe has the right to impose whatever standards they wish for someone to attain those benefits.

I asked:

Why do you back terrorism.
Why do you back denying your citizens free and fair elections.
Why do you back using human shields.
Why do you back executing people because of their sexual preferences.
Why do you back taking infants as hostages and then you back defying UN, ICC, ICJ orders to return those hostages immediately and unconditionally.

I don't back any of those things.

The fact that you do not condemn Hamas for any of these actions means that you most certainly do support them.

Why do you back an illegal occupation?
Why do you back colonialism?
Why do you back apartheid?
Why do you back genocide?

You've accused everyone who disagrees with a word you say, of which there are dozens and dozens, of backing all those things to the point that your accusations are considered nothing more than bombast. Maybe you shouldn't have cried wolf so often.

 

[Frankfooter]

With American students setting up tents on campuses? I thought that it started this way.

Internal resistance to apartheid - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_resistance_to_apartheid

Good point, Mandela and the ANC used violence against apartheid South Africa.
They were listed as terrorists by the US until 2008.

But if you look further down that page you'll see entries for international students amongst others.

Call me what you wish, but I am talking the truth to you.

It was Geno's comment that was inaccurate.

You are less truthful than Netanyahu.

Then why are Hamas using their own people as human shields as their method of self defense. Hamas intentionally triggered an enormous increase in Israeli aggression on Oct.7 after having built their military infrastructure directly alongside civilian populations, hospitals and schools.

Why are you ok with Israel murdering 25,000 women and children, hammy?
You said you're against killing civilians.

Self-determination does not mean being automatically granted citizenship, the vote, healthcare etc.. Just like Kautilya said he did for Canada, certain rules, standards, conditions, tests etc. must be met. Every sovereign nation on the globe has the right to impose whatever standards they wish for someone to attain those benefits.

So you don't back equal rights.
As we knew.

I asked:

Why do you back terrorism.
Why do you back denying your citizens free and fair elections.
Why do you back using human shields.
Why do you back executing people because of their sexual preferences.
Why do you back taking infants as hostages and then you back defying UN, ICC, ICJ orders to return those hostages immediately and unconditionally.

And I told you, I don't support any of those.
Its you that supports an illegal occupation, illegal blockade, apartheid, terrorism and genocide.
I keep calling for it all to end and for charges to both sides.

You've accused everyone who disagrees with a word you say, of which there are dozens and dozens, of backing all those things to the point that your accusations are considered nothing more than bombast. Maybe you shouldn't have cried wolf so often.

I'm repeating reports by the UN and human rights organizations, hammy.
Its you that's in denial.

Gaza war: UN rights expert accuses Israel of acts of genocide

Francesca Albanese says Israel seeks to destroy Palestinians, in a report Israel calls "outrageous".

www.bbc.com

 

[Frankfooter]

New story out today.

Top Secret: In a 2018 letter, Netanyahu asks Qatar to fund Hamas
In letter seen by handful of people, PM urges Doha to deliver $30 million to Gaza monthly, claiming funding Hamas would preserve regional stability and avert humanitarian crisis

 

[Klatuu]

Impressive

US Marines official reveals details of friendly fire towards IDF drones | The Jerusalem Post

Since the IDF has one of the world's most advanced integrated air defense systems, if this is an issue for Israel’s military, it is likely to be an issue for other militaries worldwide.

www.jpost.com

 

[shack]

I asked:

Why do you back terrorism.
Why do you back denying your citizens free and fair elections.
Why do you back using human shields.
Why do you back executing people because of their sexual preferences.
Why do you back taking infants as hostages and then you back defying UN, ICC, ICJ orders to return those hostages immediately and unconditionally.

And I told you, I don't support any of those.

In that case, unequivocally:

Tell us that you condemn the terrorist attack of Oct.7.
Tell us you condemn Hamas for not allowing free and fair democratic elections in Gaza since they took power almost 20 years ago.
Tell us you condemn the Houthis for sentencing LGBTQ to death because of their sexual preferences.
Tell us you condemn Hamas taking hostages including elderly, infirmed and infant hostages.
Tell us you condemn Hamas for not returning the hostages in spite of ICJ, ICC and UN orders.

I'd stake my TERB membership that you will not give a single word answer of YES to all of these, let alone a single one.

As such, you admit that you've lied and you DO support these actions.

 

[Frankfooter]

I asked:

You asked a series of questions that only identify you as a racial supremacist supporting genocide.
You support way worse acts from Israel for every single question here.
Israel is now far more evil, terrorist, racist and hateful than everything you accuse from Hamas.

Every accusation here is a confession that you support far worse.

Why do you back terrorism.

I don't, you do. You support targeting and killing 25,000 women and children by a country under investigation by the ICC and ICJ.
You support a government that includes members of terrorist groups, as recognized by Canada.
You support the 800 settler terrorist attacks that have happened since Oct 7.
You support Israeli terrorism in Gaza.

Why do you back denying your citizens free and fair elections.

I don't, you do. You support a government that has actively worked to stop elections, including aiding a coup on Hamas after they won a democratically fair election. You support dividing Palestinians by funding Hamas, as Netanyahu has done throughout the 17 years of UN recognized illegal blockade.
You refuse to give Palestinians the vote or equal rights. You don't support elections or democracy, you support apartheid and genocide.

Why do you back using human shields.

I don't, you do. Hamas does not use human shields as recognized by international law but Israel does. There are multiple, documented reports of Israeli use of human shields you defend.
You defend Israel using human shields, using hospitals as military bases, destroying universities and hospitals.

Why do you back executing people because of their sexual preferences.

I don't. This is an idiotic statement.
Instead you support executing people because of who they voted for.

Why do you back taking infants as hostages and then you back defying UN, ICC, ICJ orders to return those hostages immediately and unconditionally.

Hamas released the hostages during the truce in Nov. Neither side should take hostages but Israel has over 8000 Palestinians held as hostages.
The UN, ICC, and ICJ are targeting Israel, not Hamas. The ICJ provisional measures only make demands on Israel, not Hamas. Only Israel is accused of genocide, the worst crime known to humans that puts Israel on the moral footing of the nazis.

You quote the ICC and ICJ but refuse to admit that they are targeting Israel for genocide and aparthied.
You continue to support genocide.

Tell us that you condemn the terrorist attack of Oct.7.

I condemn the targeting of civilians by both sides on Oct 7 and since. You don't, you continue to defend Israeli settler terrorism, terrorism in Gaza and a government with elected terrorists. You support 75 years of occupation created through Jewish terrorism during partition. You back a state built on colonialism and terrorism.

Tell us you condemn Hamas for not allowing free and fair democratic elections in Gaza since they took power almost 20 years ago.

The last time there was a democratic election Hamas won, since then Israel backed a coup and worked to separate Palestinians and stop democracy and a united front. Tell me you condemn Israeli attacks on Palestinian democracy.

Tell us you condemn the Houthis for sentencing LGBTQ to death because of their sexual preferences.

Sure, the Houthis should not condemn anyone to death because of sexual preferences.

Tell us you condemn Hamas taking hostages including elderly, infirmed and infant hostages.

Neither side should take civilians as hostages. This has long been an Israeli practice so if you want to stop it you need to end administrative detention entirely and stop Israel from putting Palestinian children in prison.

Tell us you condemn Hamas for not returning the hostages in spite of ICJ, ICC and UN orders.

There were no such orders directed at Hamas by the ICJ. The only orders were through provisional measures and they demanded Israel not commit genocide, prevent killing Palestinians and allow all aid through.
The ICC will lay charges soon, likely all on Israelis. You will now have to support them since you declared you support the ICC.
The UN ordered both sides to ceasefire, both refused. Both should face repercussions.

This post was yet another attempt to justify your racial supremacy and support of genocide, hammy.
All it does is show that for every accusation you make, its an admission that you back far worse.

You will now look at this post and declare since I didn't say 'yes' that therefore I didn't answer the questions.
You will lie again, in other words, to justify killing more women and children.

 

[Frankfooter]

Israel is preparing to attack Rafah, home of 600,000 children living in tents.

Netanyahu hoped Hamas would reject Israel's offer. When it didn't, he turned to sabotage

***

www.haaretz.com

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1787467813491204303

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1787390377500008563

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1787359299196612662

 

[Frankfooter]

The question is what happens after this call.

Biden-Netanyahu speak in call with US concerned over Rafah evacuation order

Reporting from Washington, DC
The United States is still concerned that this may go ahead while there is the possibility of talks over a ceasefire. But in Washington there’s also the suggestion that perhaps the Israelis are pushing ahead with this plan to force Hamas to the negotiating table and agree to Israel’s terms.
The talks come amid a backdrop of what Netanyahu said in an address to the Israeli people at the weekend – that you “cannot trust the promises of gentiles [non-Jews]”. That has angered a lot of people in Washington, not least because of the support President Joe Biden has given Israel, and the support that he has given them militarily.
The US has said for a number of months that Israel has to be careful with the way it wages war in Gaza, that it has to take into account the humanitarian aspect. And we’ve heard that, behind the scenes, that the US is putting pressure on Israel to reduce civilian casualties. But we’ve seen nothing on the ground in that regard that is obvious to independent observers.