Oh man. You are the ultimate debater. What was I thinking?
Have you ever lost a debate?
Israel at war
- Thread starter Butler1000
- Start date
Have you ever lost a debate?
Israel will continue to “ make the earth shake“ in Gaza until Hamas is neutered and unable to send any rockets into Israel from Gaza.
Hamas has succeeded in stopping for the foreseeable future and to the delight of Iran and Russia, the Israelis and other Arab nations most importantly Saudi Arabia from normalizing and strengthening ties.
There is much ambivalence from most Arab governments including neighbouring Jordan and Egypt towards the plight of the Palestinians which has been the case well before October 7th of this year.
No country is prepared to engage in direct war with Israel over the the plight of the Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank.
The death count in Gaza will become a U.S. election issue in 2024, aided by social media bringing images of thousands of maimed and murdered Gaza civilians particularly children across global social media.
Hamas has succeeded in stopping for the foreseeable future and to the delight of Iran and Russia, the Israelis and other Arab nations most importantly Saudi Arabia from normalizing and strengthening ties.
There is much ambivalence from most Arab governments including neighbouring Jordan and Egypt towards the plight of the Palestinians which has been the case well before October 7th of this year.
No country is prepared to engage in direct war with Israel over the the plight of the Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank.
The death count in Gaza will become a U.S. election issue in 2024, aided by social media bringing images of thousands of maimed and murdered Gaza civilians particularly children across global social media.
Responding generally to your points.
There is stuff that is not going to happen in the Middle East. There is no political will in Israel - especially under Netanyahu - to curb the illegal settlements on the West Bank or the anti Arab prejudices. And it takes a huge leap of faith to think that Gaza is going to transition from anti Israel revanchist feelings to acceptance and cooperation with Israel. Even if you kill a number of HAMAS leaders and force the others to flee to other Arab countries, a new generation of HAMAS or a facsimile will replace them. The Gazans have been raised to hate Israel and IMO the current situation has been created by HAMAS to bolster international and internal support and they have succeeded by creating an outrage that no Israeli leader could fail to respond to with overwhelming military force.
While you make the point that Israeli casualties caused by HAMAS have been light up to 7 October, surely that is because HAMAS previously had a policy of tacit acceptance of Israel. There's no great technological or military feat involved in 7 October. You need a few bulldozers to knock down the fence and several hundred armed assholes with AK-47's to murder, rape and torture civilians and take hostages.
7 October could happen on any day of any month of any year that didn't feature an all out attack by the IDF on Gaza itself. And probably will. What sovereign country can possibly tolerate that sort of threat?
Surely it's time for the Gazans to be accepted by the other Arab nations and re settled and for Gaza to be incorporated into Israel?
There are many precedents, most from the post 1945 period. Germany accepted Germans from East Prussia and Silesia and other areas incorporated into Poland. Stalin forcibly re settled Poles from the Lviv area into the rest of Poland and Ukrainians from other areas of Poland into Ukraine. (That ended decades of genocidal war between Poles and Ukrainians in the region).
There are some situations that good will and reason simply aren't going to solve. Israel has been sitting on the areas it occupies for 75 years. There are 3 generations of Palestinians that have grown up under Israeli occupation. This isn't a recent outrage. It's something that happened back when Grandad was young.
Do United Empire Loyalists get to have their farms in New York and Pennsylvania given back to them with damages because they got kicked out of the USA in 1783? There are simply grievances which are too old to re fight.
I was looking for an acknowledgement that Hamas is complicit in the Gazan deaths and by agreeing that not as many Gazans would have died if not for Oct. 7, you are agreeing with me at least to some extent.
I believe you'd previously said that it was ALL Israel's fault.
Rather generalized racism here. Some Tamils celebrated the Tigers terror attacks and Some Buddhists in Myanmar celebrated attacks on Muslim civilians.
But yes, Hamas and their backers like Frank celebrate their attacks and find pathetic ways to pretend that Jewish civilians aren't really civilians.
There's a difference between free speech and hate speech.
You and frank know this because you keep accusing us all of hate speech for criticizing hamas.
To be fair, some backed Hamas because Fatah is so corrupt (not that Hamas is much less corrupt). But yes, after 100 years of being told by leaders that violence will rid the area of Jews, there are people who believe it.
How about the tenet of Islamic thought that territory taken from a Muslim rules is apostate and every devout Muslim must try and return that land to Allah?
It's nuts and no reasonable Muslim believes it. But HAMAS probably does.
Definitely true, considering that Canada and other countries turned away Jewish refugees and sent them right back to Nazi Germany and the way that most of the West refused to allow Holocaust survivors to return to their homes.
But as the war progressed, Allied leaders were aware of the camps. They might not have known the extent of the killing at some of the worst ones but they knew what the Nazis said about jews.
That may have somewhat been the case with the PLO but Hamas is very clearly pushing the narrative that the conflict is Islam against Judaism. I don't know how much their leadership actually believes that but describing themselves as the Islamic resistance and promoting quotes from the Koran against Jews is definitely part of their messaging.
And lately, the incitement from both Hamas and more moderate Palestinian sources has fixated on religion, casting visits by Jews to the area of Al Aqsa/Temple Mount as a desecration to try and get followers (completely ignoring that the Jordan controlled Islamic WAQF approves visits of non-Muslims).
p.s. Again from Sept polling,
The columns are total, West Bank, Gaza so before this fighting, Fatah was 2nd place after "none of above" and have a significant backing even in Gaza. Unfortunately, I suspect support for Hamas will increase after this war.
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Considering Israel hasn't released the pics of the 1400 butchered civilians the way that Hamas has might have something to do with it.
But I would suspect that the aid going through Egypt is at least somewhat vetted as they trust Hamas exactly as much as Israel does.
From what they say, they won't agree to a ceasefire until the 250+ hostages are released. I'm sure their leadership knows that nothing will stop the rockets but want to reduce Hamas abilities as much as possible.
Iran is pretty close with their Hezbollah and Houthi proxies quite happy to launch rockets at Israel (and the Houthis have more advanced weaponry).
I'd suggest the smaller Israeli death toll has a lot to do with Israeli actions including the money they've spent on building safe rooms and the Iron Dome system. The 'feat' Oct. 7 was on the intelligence side and I'm sure Hamas knew that it would be a one shot deal.
Bullshit, you lie.
You are a supporter of terrorism based on your racial supremacy.
Smaller death toll?
Israel has killed more in 3 weeks in Gaza than Putin killed in Ukraine in 2 years.
And 9 years ago Tutu said Israel is apartheid.
He should know.
You lie to support killing Palestinians.
Desmond Tutu: Israel guilty of apartheid in treatment of Palestinians
Tutu, the Nobel Peace laureate, criticized Israeli policies toward the Palestinians in the territories as "humiliating."
Gee, Did you not read his question? Where do you admit hamas committed an act of terror on the 7th?
Quoting Russia's allies on morality is like quoting your 'UN' person who believes Jews have subjugated America.
By your logic, Israel has committed 5000 9/11's on Gaza in 3 weeks.
Bishop Desmond Tutu won the Nobel for peace.
You support genocide.
You think we should listen to you about anything?
