Israel at war

[mandrill]

Belligerents, Nationalism, Support

First, Hamas is a terrorist organization. There is no debating with them or reasoning with them. Despite what they claim now, I believe Hamas will exist as long as Israel exists and will always try to kill Israelis and Jews until none are left. But without military support from other countries, it would have very little ability to harm Israel or Israelis.
Flame away.

Responding generally to your points.

There is stuff that is not going to happen in the Middle East. There is no political will in Israel - especially under Netanyahu - to curb the illegal settlements on the West Bank or the anti Arab prejudices. And it takes a huge leap of faith to think that Gaza is going to transition from anti Israel revanchist feelings to acceptance and cooperation with Israel. Even if you kill a number of HAMAS leaders and force the others to flee to other Arab countries, a new generation of HAMAS or a facsimile will replace them. The Gazans have been raised to hate Israel and IMO the current situation has been created by HAMAS to bolster international and internal support and they have succeeded by creating an outrage that no Israeli leader could fail to respond to with overwhelming military force.

While you make the point that Israeli casualties caused by HAMAS have been light up to 7 October, surely that is because HAMAS previously had a policy of tacit acceptance of Israel. There's no great technological or military feat involved in 7 October. You need a few bulldozers to knock down the fence and several hundred armed assholes with AK-47's to murder, rape and torture civilians and take hostages.

7 October could happen on any day of any month of any year that didn't feature an all out attack by the IDF on Gaza itself. And probably will. What sovereign country can possibly tolerate that sort of threat?

Surely it's time for the Gazans to be accepted by the other Arab nations and re settled and for Gaza to be incorporated into Israel?

There are many precedents, most from the post 1945 period. Germany accepted Germans from East Prussia and Silesia and other areas incorporated into Poland. Stalin forcibly re settled Poles from the Lviv area into the rest of Poland and Ukrainians from other areas of Poland into Ukraine. (That ended decades of genocidal war between Poles and Ukrainians in the region).

There are some situations that good will and reason simply aren't going to solve. Israel has been sitting on the areas it occupies for 75 years. There are 3 generations of Palestinians that have grown up under Israeli occupation. This isn't a recent outrage. It's something that happened back when Grandad was young.

Do United Empire Loyalists get to have their farms in New York and Pennsylvania given back to them with damages because they got kicked out of the USA in 1783? There are simply grievances which are too old to re fight.

 

[shack]

I dont see how that is relevant to defending criticisms of Israel that they are committing war crimes though.

I was looking for an acknowledgement that Hamas is complicit in the Gazan deaths and by agreeing that not as many Gazans would have died if not for Oct. 7, you are agreeing with me at least to some extent.

I believe you'd previously said that it was ALL Israel's fault.

 

[basketcase]

...

Military and civilian bombers killing non combatants in non combat areas for terror purposes are not celebrated in the West. But they are by Muslims. ...

Rather generalized racism here. Some Tamils celebrated the Tigers terror attacks and Some Buddhists in Myanmar celebrated attacks on Muslim civilians.

But yes, Hamas and their backers like Frank celebrate their attacks and find pathetic ways to pretend that Jewish civilians aren't really civilians.

 

[basketcase]

Thanks again little Mitch…..no one would have known about but hers is an experience we all need to fight against. The pro Israel crowd is trying to shut down free speech. Bringing the repression used in Israel against Canadian citizens.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1720214235643265083

There's a difference between free speech and hate speech.

You and frank know this because you keep accusing us all of hate speech for criticizing hamas.

 

[basketcase]

Not really...they chose hamas because of the promise to get rid of the jews....well...that won't possible without violence Palestinians know this and did it anyway...when you kidnap Israelis, kill civilians, celebrate it as victory...what's the expectations?

To be fair, some backed Hamas because Fatah is so corrupt (not that Hamas is much less corrupt). But yes, after 100 years of being told by leaders that violence will rid the area of Jews, there are people who believe it.

 

[mandrill]

Plenty of historians and scholars have discounted the relevance of religion. The Arab-Israeli and Israeli-Palestinian conflicts have always been filled by nationalism and not religion. We hear no debates from either side about which religion is right or which prophets to obey, only debates about who owns and deserves what territory. Dr. James Gelvin is one of the leading Middle Eastern historians focusing on the Palestine region, and he's written several books and published several papers about how the conflict is based on nationalism and not theology.

I didn't mention Jerusalem specifically because I don't think it should be treated differently vis a vis a return of lawful territory and my post was already pushing the limits of size. If you want clarification: I said Israel should return all illegally occupied land. That includes East Jerusalem.

Though I'll admit it could probably be fleshed out more. I'm not charged with allowing to the two sides and coming up with a final deal though. I still maintain its far more likely to succeed and happen than demanding Hamas terrorist just suddenly become reasonable people, or that Israel can beat the Palestinians into embracing them.

If your plan is for more Israeli violence and oppression against Palestine to make them love Israel and turn from Hamas and for Hamas terrorists to be reasonable people, I don't think you're in a position to criticise. What I propose are things Israel has never tried at least, and that's got to be better than the same old thing

How about the tenet of Islamic thought that territory taken from a Muslim rules is apostate and every devout Muslim must try and return that land to Allah?

It's nuts and no reasonable Muslim believes it. But HAMAS probably does.

 

[basketcase]

OK on the 1st part.

But the last part is not accurate at all. Millions died because Hitler wanted to conquer Europe not because of what he did to the Jews.

Hell, the allies never even knew about the concentration camps and gas chambers until the after the Germans ran away.

So the plight of the Jews was not an issue as to why millions of allies died in WWII. Sorry to disappoint you.

The world didn't care then, which was why the guy wore the yellow star to the UN. He was reminding the UN of a not so ancient history of anti-Semitism and how it could easily be repeated.

Definitely true, considering that Canada and other countries turned away Jewish refugees and sent them right back to Nazi Germany and the way that most of the West refused to allow Holocaust survivors to return to their homes.

But as the war progressed, Allied leaders were aware of the camps. They might not have known the extent of the killing at some of the worst ones but they knew what the Nazis said about jews.

 

[basketcase]

Plenty of historians and scholars have discounted the relevance of religion. The Arab-Israeli and Israeli-Palestinian conflicts have always been filled by nationalism and not religion....

That may have somewhat been the case with the PLO but Hamas is very clearly pushing the narrative that the conflict is Islam against Judaism. I don't know how much their leadership actually believes that but describing themselves as the Islamic resistance and promoting quotes from the Koran against Jews is definitely part of their messaging.


And lately, the incitement from both Hamas and more moderate Palestinian sources has fixated on religion, casting visits by Jews to the area of Al Aqsa/Temple Mount as a desecration to try and get followers (completely ignoring that the Jordan controlled Islamic WAQF approves visits of non-Muslims).

p.s. Again from Sept polling,
The columns are total, West Bank, Gaza so before this fighting, Fatah was 2nd place after "none of above" and have a significant backing even in Gaza. Unfortunately, I suspect support for Hamas will increase after this war.

 

[basketcase]

So everyone lies and has an agenda except Israel. Got it.

I think it's entirely possible this happened. I also think it's suspicious Israel released no photographs or evidence though. When under fire and being criticised so heavily, why keep secrets that aren't relevant to national security or defense?

Considering Israel hasn't released the pics of the 1400 butchered civilians the way that Hamas has might have something to do with it.

But I would suspect that the aid going through Egypt is at least somewhat vetted as they trust Hamas exactly as much as Israel does.

 

[basketcase]

Israel will continue to “ make the earth shake“ in Gaza until Hamas is neutered and unable to send any rockets into Israel from Gaza.
...

From what they say, they won't agree to a ceasefire until the 250+ hostages are released. I'm sure their leadership knows that nothing will stop the rockets but want to reduce Hamas abilities as much as possible.

No country is prepared to engage in direct war with Israel over the the plight of the Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank.

Iran is pretty close with their Hezbollah and Houthi proxies quite happy to launch rockets at Israel (and the Houthis have more advanced weaponry).

 

[basketcase]

...

While you make the point that Israeli casualties caused by HAMAS have been light up to 7 October, surely that is because HAMAS previously had a policy of tacit acceptance of Israel. There's no great technological or military feat involved in 7 October. You need a few bulldozers to knock down the fence and several hundred armed assholes with AK-47's to murder, rape and torture civilians and take hostages.
...

I'd suggest the smaller Israeli death toll has a lot to do with Israeli actions including the money they've spent on building safe rooms and the Iron Dome system. The 'feat' Oct. 7 was on the intelligence side and I'm sure Hamas knew that it would be a one shot deal.

 

[Frankfooter]

Starting Oct. 8, you have refused to say that Hamas' attack on Israeli citizens of Oct. 7 was an act of terror.

You set the rules of engagement and I'm following your precedent. It's funny how you don't like someone using the same tactics that you initiated. That is so typical of you. You like to dish it out, but you clearly can't take it.

Bullshit, you lie.

https://terb.cc/xenforo/threads/the-dark-side-of-roger-waters.829457/post-8127425

You are a supporter of terrorism based on your racial supremacy.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1720528558764785878

 

[Frankfooter]

I'd suggest the smaller Israeli death toll has a lot to do with Israeli actions including the money they've spent on building safe rooms and the Iron Dome system. The 'feat' Oct. 7 was on the intelligence side and I'm sure Hamas knew that it would be a one shot deal.

Smaller death toll?

Israel has killed more in 3 weeks in Gaza than Putin killed in Ukraine in 2 years.

 

[Frankfooter]

Wrong again.

Actually, it's important to discuss citizenship.

S. Africa introduced laws that discriminated against their own citizens and they named it Apartheid.

And 9 years ago Tutu said Israel is apartheid.
He should know.
You lie to support killing Palestinians.

Desmond Tutu: Israel guilty of apartheid in treatment of Palestinians
Tutu, the Nobel Peace laureate, criticized Israeli policies toward the Palestinians in the territories as "humiliating."

 

[basketcase]

Bullshit, you lie.

https://terb.cc/xenforo/threads/the-dark-side-of-roger-waters.829457/post-8127425

...

Gee, Did you not read his question? Where do you admit hamas committed an act of terror on the 7th?

 

[basketcase]

And 9 years ago Tutu said Israel is apartheid.
He should know.
You lie to support killing Palestinians.

Desmond Tutu: Israel guilty of apartheid in treatment of Palestinians
Tutu, the Nobel Peace laureate, criticized Israeli policies toward the Palestinians in the territories as "humiliating."

Quoting Russia's allies on morality is like quoting your 'UN' person who believes Jews have subjugated America.

 

[Frankfooter]

How about you include in the "Proportionality" argument, the fact that Israel has to largely take out the HAMAS command structure to avoid a repeat of 7 October in a few months' time?

Can't you argue that even a low proportion of HAMAS officials vis a vis Gazan civilians justifies a bomb or artillery strike due to the overwhelming necessity of destroying those HAMAS officials to protect Israeli civilians in the near future?

By your logic, Israel has committed 5000 9/11's on Gaza in 3 weeks.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1720535641253916986

 

[Frankfooter]

Quoting Russia's allies on morality is like quoting your 'UN' person who believes Jews have subjugated America.

Bishop Desmond Tutu won the Nobel for peace.
You support genocide.

You think we should listen to you about anything?

 

[basketcase]

Bishop Desmond Tutu won the Nobel for peace.
You support genocide.

You think we should listen to you about anything?

Your lies are boringly pathetic. Do you think accusing all of us of genocide will hide the fact that you have yet to admit the Oct 7 attack was terrorism and that you have a long history of justifying attacks on Jewish civilians?

Tutu might have known the conditions he grew up in but that doesn't mean he was informed about politics around the world. BTW. Do you know why he hasn't released any opinion on Israel for a couple years?

 

[basketcase]

By your logic, Israel has committed 5000 9/11's on Gaza in 3 weeks.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1720535641253916986

What a surprise, you parrot someone else's nonsense.