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Israel at war

basketcase

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Plenty of historians and scholars have discounted the relevance of religion. The Arab-Israeli and Israeli-Palestinian conflicts have always been filled by nationalism and not religion....
That may have somewhat been the case with the PLO but Hamas is very clearly pushing the narrative that the conflict is Islam against Judaism. I don't know how much their leadership actually believes that but describing themselves as the Islamic resistance and promoting quotes from the Koran against Jews is definitely part of their messaging.


And lately, the incitement from both Hamas and more moderate Palestinian sources has fixated on religion, casting visits by Jews to the area of Al Aqsa/Temple Mount as a desecration to try and get followers (completely ignoring that the Jordan controlled Islamic WAQF approves visits of non-Muslims).

p.s. Again from Sept polling,
The columns are total, West Bank, Gaza so before this fighting, Fatah was 2nd place after "none of above" and have a significant backing even in Gaza. Unfortunately, I suspect support for Hamas will increase after this war.
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basketcase

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So everyone lies and has an agenda except Israel. Got it.

I think it's entirely possible this happened. I also think it's suspicious Israel released no photographs or evidence though. When under fire and being criticised so heavily, why keep secrets that aren't relevant to national security or defense?
Considering Israel hasn't released the pics of the 1400 butchered civilians the way that Hamas has might have something to do with it.

But I would suspect that the aid going through Egypt is at least somewhat vetted as they trust Hamas exactly as much as Israel does.
 

basketcase

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Israel will continue to “ make the earth shake“ in Gaza until Hamas is neutered and unable to send any rockets into Israel from Gaza.
...
From what they say, they won't agree to a ceasefire until the 250+ hostages are released. I'm sure their leadership knows that nothing will stop the rockets but want to reduce Hamas abilities as much as possible.

No country is prepared to engage in direct war with Israel over the the plight of the Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank.
Iran is pretty close with their Hezbollah and Houthi proxies quite happy to launch rockets at Israel (and the Houthis have more advanced weaponry).
 

basketcase

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...

While you make the point that Israeli casualties caused by HAMAS have been light up to 7 October, surely that is because HAMAS previously had a policy of tacit acceptance of Israel. There's no great technological or military feat involved in 7 October. You need a few bulldozers to knock down the fence and several hundred armed assholes with AK-47's to murder, rape and torture civilians and take hostages.
...
I'd suggest the smaller Israeli death toll has a lot to do with Israeli actions including the money they've spent on building safe rooms and the Iron Dome system. The 'feat' Oct. 7 was on the intelligence side and I'm sure Hamas knew that it would be a one shot deal.
 

Frankfooter

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Starting Oct. 8, you have refused to say that Hamas' attack on Israeli citizens of Oct. 7 was an act of terror.

You set the rules of engagement and I'm following your precedent. It's funny how you don't like someone using the same tactics that you initiated. That is so typical of you. You like to dish it out, but you clearly can't take it.
Bullshit, you lie.

You are a supporter of terrorism based on your racial supremacy.
 
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Frankfooter

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I'd suggest the smaller Israeli death toll has a lot to do with Israeli actions including the money they've spent on building safe rooms and the Iron Dome system. The 'feat' Oct. 7 was on the intelligence side and I'm sure Hamas knew that it would be a one shot deal.
Smaller death toll?

Israel has killed more in 3 weeks in Gaza than Putin killed in Ukraine in 2 years.
 
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Frankfooter

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basketcase

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Frankfooter

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How about you include in the "Proportionality" argument, the fact that Israel has to largely take out the HAMAS command structure to avoid a repeat of 7 October in a few months' time?

Can't you argue that even a low proportion of HAMAS officials vis a vis Gazan civilians justifies a bomb or artillery strike due to the overwhelming necessity of destroying those HAMAS officials to protect Israeli civilians in the near future?
By your logic, Israel has committed 5000 9/11's on Gaza in 3 weeks.
 

basketcase

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Bishop Desmond Tutu won the Nobel for peace.
You support genocide.

You think we should listen to you about anything?
Your lies are boringly pathetic. Do you think accusing all of us of genocide will hide the fact that you have yet to admit the Oct 7 attack was terrorism and that you have a long history of justifying attacks on Jewish civilians?

Tutu might have known the conditions he grew up in but that doesn't mean he was informed about politics around the world. BTW. Do you know why he hasn't released any opinion on Israel for a couple years?
 

Frankfooter

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Belligerents, Nationalism, Support

First, Hamas is a terrorist organization. There is no debating with them or reasoning with them. Despite what they claim now, I believe Hamas will exist as long as Israel exists and will always try to kill Israelis and Jews until none are left. But without military support from other countries, it would have very little ability to harm Israel or Israelis.

Secondly, a lot of Israel's settlements and occupations are illegal. The Sinai, occupied in 1967, was returned to Egypt, all occupation ended and all settlers withdrawn. They still illegally occupy the Golan Heights, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Other occupied territories were ceded to Israel in various treaties.

Thirdly, Palestinians are victims from both sides. As the younger generation has grown with a warped education system and no first-hand exposure to reasons to question it, their support for Hamas has only increased. But I find it difficult to blame them given the situation they are in and I think given the chance and several years to build trust the damage done can be reversed.

Fourthly, this is not a religious issue but a nationalist issue. The fighting is and has always been about the land and who controls it, not about which religious ideology is superior. While a protracted peace might result in the religious disagreements coming to the forefront, thus far they have been irrelevant except as a motivator and justifier.

Lastly, the US and a handful of other countries have been unwavering in their support for Israel, but by and large the international community has attempted time and time again to condemn and sanction Israel over their illegal settlements. While the US offers a staggering amount of military support, Israel is very short on political support on the international stage.

Context and Occupations

After the first Arab-Israeli War, Israel agreed to the UNTSO Armistice process but then refused to attend any the meetings held by he commissions. As part of their settlement with Egypt after the 3rd and 4th Arab-Israeli war, they withdrew all settlers and military personnel from the Sinai and returned it to Egyptian control.

Israel has refused to return the Golan citing primarily that it was taken in a "defensive war" and so they have no obligation to "give it back". They claim a Jewish majority population, "thousands of years of historical rule", the defensive value of the area, and water rights as secondary reasons. But these are all reasons Palatine gives for wanting control of Palestinian lands back (except the defensive value argument) and so Israel is really in no position to make those arguments. Some are also questionable. The idea that you just get to keep land from a defensive war has no basis in history. Transfer of land can and should only be in conjunction with a peace treaty, but with Israel not attending UNTSO Armistice committee meetings they are not operating in good faith.

Israel has refused to end occupations and settlements in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank primarily by playing semantics games: they claim no nation actually has legal claim to it and therefore they have no one to return it to. They also argue they need to hold it under occupation until they can bring an end to the operations of terrorist groups like Hamas.

Current Strategy and Situation

In the last 15 years, up to but excluding October 7th of those year, about 309 Israelis have been killed by Hamas. Over the same 15 year period, Israel has killed 8,000 Palestinians. It's a disproportionate amount of death. I've stated my claim that, just as Nazis still exist, Israel will never be able to eliminate Hamas. And if that objective can't be attained, it's worth examining exactly what is being accomplished and whether it's worth doing.

There are 4 primary results from Israel's strategy to attack Palestine disproportionately in response to an attack from Hamas. First, it kills more Palestinians and destroys more Palestinian homes and infrastructure. As I've said multiple times, that merely gives Hamas more ammunition to use in recruiting and creates more hate towards Israel from Palestinians. It's estimated that support for Hamas amongst Palestinians in Gaza has gone from just over 30% to well over 80%, the opposite of what some people believe these restaurations will accomplish. Secondly, it keeps the international community from softening it's views on Israeli policy. Thirdly, it makes it easier for other groups and countries to justify supporting a resistance against Israel which essentially means supporting and supplying Hamas. And lastly, it gives Hamas a legitimate reason to withhold democracy and give Palestinians a chance to bring reform through diplomatic means (remember many countries, including the UK, have justified suspending Democratic processes during times of war).

In short, Israel had killed 8,000 Palestinians, largely civilians, prior to October 7th, and more than 17,000 Palestinians, largely civilians, if you include the period from October 7th until today, and what they have to show for it is more support for Hamas rather than less, a continued erosion of international support, a more well-supplied Hamas, and no way for Palestinians to have any democratic say in how things are done. What has Israel gained from this policy? Nothing. Therefore by every metric, the current strategy is an abysmal failure and had no possibility of being anything but.

Clearly it's time to stop and try something else.

Underlying Challenge

That is the situation as it sits now. In regards to my position: I have said Israel should try something new and I've said the objective of eliminating Hamas in unachievable and therefore any strategy with that objective in mind will fail. I will lay out my thoughts on what Israel should do by first reframing the objective and then by enumerating the actions that Israel should take to get there.

If you look at causes of death in Israel, from most to least common, it is cancer, heart disease, diabetes, strokes and other cerebrovascular diseases, septicemia, dementia, kidney disease, respiratory disease, pneumonia and the flu, and lastly "accidents". People killed by Hamas fit in that last category. In every other developed Western nation, you are more likely to die in an "accident" than you are in Israel despite the presence of Hamas (in the US it's the 4th most common cause of death, and in Canada and Europe it's the 6th). In Palestine, accidents (which includes being killed by the Israeli police or military) is the 4th most common cause of death.

Now these numbers will likely be skewed by the numbers from October 7th onwards. The cowardly and abhorrent attack by Hamas claimed some 1400 Israeli lives and another 9000 Palestinian. The attacks by Hamas have justly been condemned by many as a terrorist attack against civilians. The Israeli response has also been justly condemned by many for its attacks against civilians and civilian infrastructure.

But where did Hamas get the ability to do this? How did a group that's previously only been able to kill a few dozen people at most in one strike kill 14,00? International support, by and large, is the only answer I can think of. They've clearly gotten weapons and support from Iran and potentially other nations. For not the first time in its existence, Israel has sought support for international pressure against countries that support antisemitic terrorist groups and been rebuffed due to their own illegal occupation.

This lack of support is the biggest underlying challenge Israel faces. With international support, Israel may be able to stifle this support for Hamas and reduce their military effectiveness, but without it Israel can only attempt the impossible elimination of Hamas.

Reframing the Objective

The end goal of the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict cannot be the end of antisemitism in the region or the elimination of all antisemites because that's an impossibility. It does not matter what ethnic or religious group you belong to, people hate you simply for being in that group. Some groups experience more hate and some less, but it still exists and always will. The would will never be free of hate. And for Jews that's always been more true than many groups. It's tragic and unfair and I wish bigotry could be wiped out, but it can't.

And that's why the Israeli objectives are bad. They seek to achieve the impossible: the elimination of hate.

Some number of Israelis will always die in Israel. Several years may pass with no death, but eventually hate will bubble to prominence and some Israelis will be killed. Accepting that reality (that no matter how many Palestinians Israel kills, even if they kill all of them, Israel will still occasionally be a target), is the first thing that has to be done. Because once it is, we can adjust the objective from the impossible to something attainable.

There's a term in risk management called ALARA, which stands for "as low as reasonably achievable". When dealing with risk, it can never be reduced to 0. Each subsequent precaution taken to lower it usually has an increasing cost, often an exponentially increasing cost. So the goal is to reduce that number as much as you can before the cost to reduce it further becomes impractical.

This should be the Israeli objectives: reduce Israeli deaths from not just Hamas but all anti-Israeli groups ALARA. And the way to do that is not with oppression, military occupation, and disproportionate violent responses. But rather with a systematic changing of policies to reduce support for those groups.

This means three primary objectives:

1. Reduce support for Hamas from among the Palestinian population
2. Reduce support for Hamas from other groups and nations
3. Increase cooperation from the international community to assist in the other objectives

International Corporation

The biggest thing hindering international cooperation is the illegal Israeli settlements and military occupations. The first step is to reverse this. The Israeli semantics games and the lack of effort towards resolutions that Israel claimed to support need to stop.

First, recall all illegal settlers. After ending the current war and siege of the Gaza (which should be done right now), that should be done immediately. Demonstrate a willingness to work with the international community and abide by international law.

Secondly, approach the UNTSO to resume talks with Syria, and handing the Golan Heights to the UN to be returned to Syria. This should contain no conditions and be immediate regardless of Syria's response to the desire to resume talks.

Third, end all Israeli blockades and immediately send humanitarian end to all areas effected by Israeli occupation over the last 75 years.

The new borders should be those negotiated in the treaties following the 2nd Arab-Israeli Conflict. This would end any legitimate argument used against Israel when they seek international pressure.

At every chance, Israel should push for a resolution introducing sanctions and condemnation of any nation supporting Hamas. It likely won't pass immediately, but will garner more and more support as time passes.

This is also the only legitimate way to reduce support for Hamas from organizations and nations that oppose the legitimacy of an Israeli state. Hopefully the end of illegal settlements and occupations will always accomplish some of that, but other nations, which are off-limits to Israeli military action due to their size and power, can only have their support of terrorists curtailed by international pressure.

Palestinian Opinion

As for dealing with Hamas internally, that's a harder matter. Again, ending illegal occupations and providing aid and succour will do some of the work, and time will help as well. Israel demonstrating they are not the bloodthirsty demons portrayed in the Hamas educational system is the only way to challenge those perceptions though. The constant killing of civilians, destructions on hospitals and schools, and rationing of food and water won't. It's not just about winning "hearts and minds". In fact, it's not about that at all. It's about doing the right thing, being a caring and benevolent society. If that's how you want those who might support your enemy to see you, then ideally you actually are those things.

In addition to calling for sanctions against those who support Hamas in the UN, present or support motions that recognize the right of Palestinians to exist, to be secure, to self-determination and to self-governance. The "Arab Lands" currently occupied and that Israeli semantics games claim "being to no one" should be rightfully part of a Palestinian state. If Israel is to have any hope of a peaceful coexistence, it must recognize it's neighbours as equal members of the human race.

Fighting Hamas

Hamas will always exist and will always attack Israel, and Israel cannot just sit there and do nothing. Some have said that's clearly what I want, but not so. Israel has proven, through operations in the past, that it is capable of restricted, targeted police actions aimed at Hamas. They have carried these operations out very successfully in the West Bank. The world is also aware that they have some of the best trained special forces in the world in the area of urban operations.

They can carry out these operations in Gaza, locate and arrest any known-Hamas members, and neutralize stores of weapons and munitions. This won't be free of bloodshed, but the number is Israelis who die in this operation now and in future will be less than 1400, the number of Palestinians will be some number less than 9000, and Israel will be able to demonstrate its commitment to preserving innocent lives.

The same should occur for incidents going forward. And if, down the road, wherever Palestinian authority exists decides to continue to attack Israel, Israel has a god chance of securing UN support for a resolution to deal with it because it will no longer be engaging in war crimes including illegal occupations.

Summary

Israel needs to abandon the idea of eliminating Hamas; it cannot be done. Instead it should focus on reducing support for Hamas from Palestinians and other nations, and increase support to enable better sanctioning of nations and groups that support Hamas.

To do that, Israel should first end the war, and then try things it has never done before. Namely ending all illegal settlements, recalling all settlers, return all occupied territories, provide aid and relief to all areas that suffered their illegal occupations, recognize Palestinian return to life, security and self-determinism. It should do this without conditions or demands on anyone else.

I think there is near zero chance of Israel doing that. But I think it's the only chance Israel has to live in some semblance of peace with minimal loss of life and maximum support when something does happen.

I know many will say this will just make Israel a target. I don't see how it makes them any more of as target than they already are. Some will see it makes them look weak, I say it will make them look like compassionate, understanding people. Some will say they've already tried this, but everytime Israel said they'd do anything like this it was tied to conditions of someone else going first and also they actively broke their promises and violated their proposal before, during, and after negotiations.

Israel has to act first in good faith. Not because Hamas has acted on good faith, but because Hamas are terrorists and it's foolish to ask them to do anything good. But Israel needs international support to secure itself as much as possible, and to do that it needs to redeem itself on the world stage.

That's what I think should happen. It's not a solution, it doesn't end violence or guarantee no Israelis will ever die to terrorism, but it's the only chance they have in my opinion.

Flame away.
I applaud you for taking the time and thought for this post.

I'm sure you'll be flamed by both sides but by and large your proposals make sense and are what the the US claims to back.

I'll take issue with a few points, and I'm sure you'll have issue with my statements.
1) You state Israel's goal is to 'eliminate hate', but that's not accurate. That's a cat poster. Israel is a zionist project, its stated goals have always been to take all of Palestine as Israel. See the Truman video posted earlier in this thread, or check statements from Ben Gurion. Or Churchill.
2) If you reframe it as a colonial movement vs an indigenous population, you get a more accurate take. Hamas uses the techniques of terrorism but so does Israel. Hate is taught by both sides and both sides have good people trying to stop the hate. Because both sides are humans.
3) The two state solution, which you back, would have been possible 20 or 30 years ago but that's gone now. That's why the PLM movement calls for 'from the river to the sea', its about freedom of movement for the people, the end of apartheid. Military solutions and solutions with borders are impossible now. You can't get Israel to give back all the occupied lands and abandon the settlements. Check the maps, a contiguous Palestinian state is now impossible.
4) That leaves ending apartheid as the only viable option. That campaign is well on its way. It took about 20 years to end apartheid in South Africa and it will take years yet, but that's where its going.

Otherwise, if your solution came to pass instead of mine I'd still jump for joy for an end to the cycle of hate and violence.
 

Butler1000

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Plenty of historians and scholars have discounted the relevance of religion. The Arab-Israeli and Israeli-Palestinian conflicts have always been filled by nationalism and not religion. We hear no debates from either side about which religion is right or which prophets to obey, only debates about who owns and deserves what territory. Dr. James Gelvin is one of the leading Middle Eastern historians focusing on the Palestine region, and he's written several books and published several papers about how the conflict is based on nationalism and not theology.

I didn't mention Jerusalem specifically because I don't think it should be treated differently vis a vis a return of lawful territory and my post was already pushing the limits of size. If you want clarification: I said Israel should return all illegally occupied land. That includes East Jerusalem.

Though I'll admit it could probably be fleshed out more. I'm not charged with allowing to the two sides and coming up with a final deal though. I still maintain its far more likely to succeed and happen than demanding Hamas terrorist just suddenly become reasonable people, or that Israel can beat the Palestinians into embracing them.

If your plan is for more Israeli violence and oppression against Palestine to make them love Israel and turn from Hamas and for Hamas terrorists to be reasonable people, I don't think you're in a position to criticise. What I propose are things Israel has never tried at least, and that's got to be better than the same old thing
Plenty also say its a primary reason. One doesn't discount the other. Its the Holy Land. Yes they want the land. The question is why.
 

Frankfooter

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Your lies are boringly pathetic. Do you think accusing all of us of genocide will hide the fact that you have yet to admit the Oct 7 attack was terrorism and that you have a long history of justifying attacks on Jewish civilians?

Tutu might have known the conditions he grew up in but that doesn't mean he was informed about politics around the world. BTW. Do you know why he hasn't released any opinion on Israel for a couple years?
Hama's crimes are now puny compared to apartheid, the blockade and genocide.
Deal with it.

That's why you won't support both sides being held to the law.
Because you know Israelis will spend far longer behind bars.

You are now part of the most hated movement in the world.

 

Frankfooter

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You may be overstating things, especially with Israel having the support of NATO.

But that is all part of Hamas' strategy.
So you're saying Hamas has outplayed Israel and Israel fell into their trap because they aren't as smart?
That now Hamas has successfully made zionism the most hated movement by forcing Israel to kill babies?

I really hope you aren't married.
Someone who relies on the wife beater defence this often should never be in a relationship.

The problem is zionism.

 

Frankfooter

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Surely it's time for the Gazans to be accepted by the other Arab nations and re settled and for Gaza to be incorporated into Israel?

There are many precedents, most from the post 1945 period. Germany accepted Germans from East Prussia and Silesia and other areas incorporated into Poland. Stalin forcibly re settled Poles from the Lviv area into the rest of Poland and Ukrainians from other areas of Poland into Ukraine. (That ended decades of genocidal war between Poles and Ukrainians in the region).

There are some situations that good will and reason simply aren't going to solve. Israel has been sitting on the areas it occupies for 75 years. There are 3 generations of Palestinians that have grown up under Israeli occupation. This isn't a recent outrage. It's something that happened back when Grandad was young.

Do United Empire Loyalists get to have their farms in New York and Pennsylvania given back to them with damages because they got kicked out of the USA in 1783? There are simply grievances which are too old to re fight.
No.

What you are proposing is a war crime.
Its Ethnic Cleansing.
Nabka 2.0

There are already 5 million Palestinian refugees hosted by the countries surrounding Israel. Those countries won't take more. Palestinians won't leave.
Egypt has threatened to start a war if Israel tries.

Israel has already proposed this and the the pushback is massive.

CBC reports:
Leaked document fuels concern Israel plans to push Palestinians from Gaza into Egypt
Israel says ‘concept paper’ isn't policy, but Palestinians fear ethnic cleansing
 

Frankfooter

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There's a difference between free speech and hate speech.

You and frank know this because you keep accusing us all of hate speech for criticizing hamas.
No, I criticize you for hate for backing apartheid and genocide.
I criticize you for hate speech for constantly conflating Hamas with all Palestinians.

Don't gaslight.
 
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