Discreet Dolls

Jays 2023

Insidious Von

My head is my home
Sep 12, 2007
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Except for Phil's homophobia, not sure why Bass is still being defended? He already had an incident with American Airlines, the anti-LGBTQ religious crusade was the second chance he used up. He's an idiot, move on.

I'm more concerned with Alek Manoah's progress in AA. He did show up to camp overweight, he was made an example of by having teenagers score eleven runs on him. He's currently doing better in New Hampshire but I'm still not optomistic he'll be back this season.

I want the July 2022 Alek Manoah back, however long that takes.

 

maurice93

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Mar 29, 2006
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Anthony Bass drew a target on his own forehead with his Tweets. Prior to his last appearance on June 5, he had only surrendered one run in his previous ten appearances. The Jays would rather weaken their roster slightly than draw the ire of the Alphabet Community. I'm guessing that Rogers may have had some input in this decision.

Anthony Bass 2023 game logs.


So you are just going to ignore his last appearance where he was terrible. Fact is he allowed 3 runs in his last 8 innings - not terrible but pedestrian. His numbers had been OK in largely low leverage situations in recent weeks, but his measurables / analytics on his stuff had shown no real progress as compared to prior year.

The coach no longer had faith in him in high leverage situations, and in low leverage situations he is a poor fit because he doesn't respond well to multiple innings.

Not surprised to see Phil McNasty give your post a like.
1) Your post excludes or ignores relevant info that should be considered (his last outing / low leverage)
2) Your post is about politics rather than baseball
3) And it allows Phil to dodge my question.

But 2 questions

#1) Once again purely baseball related, who do you and PHIL demote on or about June 8, when Mitch White is required by MLB rules to be called up on that specific day, and you need length for your bullpen for two upcoming bullpen starts because Manoah has lost it.. You can't carry 14 pitchers - its either White is waived (and lost), Francis is waived (and lost), Richards (who can go multiple innings), Cimber who is pitching better at the time than Bass (and if waived is likely claimed), or Bass. Politics fully removed the choice was 100% obvious.

#2) You claim the current roster is weaker without Bass. Given the Jays current situation (4 starters), who do you demote from the current 13 man staff that makes the team better with Bass instead of them. And why? Once again no politics.
Remember that Cimber is on the IL right now so he is not a choice. Because that choice would be easy right now.

Also there are still very outspoken relievers like Blake Treinen who still have spots in MLB. So teams are willing to carry these types. Any team could have claimed Bass for free, or now pay him the minimum. Why aren't other teams doing so? Teams have access to pitch analytics and they see the real decline in his stuff.
 
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Phil C. McNasty

Go Jays Go
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Adam Cimber had an ERA of 3.94 at the time
But over the last 30 days (approximately the same time Bass pitched) Cimber's stats were much worse than Bass.

And by quite a bit too

 
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tml

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How's our former GM doing these days? Remember, the one that Shapiro chastized for depleteing the prospects from our farm system.
 

onomatopoeia

Bzzzzz.......Doink
Jul 3, 2020
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Cabbagetown
#1) Once again purely baseball related, who do you and PHIL demote on or about June 8, when Mitch White is required by MLB rules to be called up on that specific day, and you need length for your bullpen for two upcoming bullpen starts because Manoah has lost it.. You can't carry 14 pitchers - its either White is waived (and lost), Francis is waived (and lost), Richards (who can go multiple innings), Cimber who is pitching better at the time than Bass (and if waived is likely claimed), or Bass. Politics fully removed the choice was 100% obvious.

#2) You claim the current roster is weaker without Bass. Given the Jays current situation (4 starters), who do you demote from the current 13 man staff that makes the team better with Bass instead of them. And why? Once again no politics.
Remember that Cimber is on the IL right now so he is not a choice. Because that choice would be easy right now.

Also there are still very outspoken relievers like Blake Treinen who still have spots in MLB. So teams are willing to carry these types. Any team could have claimed Bass for free, or now pay him the minimum. Why aren't other teams doing so? Teams have access to pitch analytics and they see the real decline in his stuff.
I would have waived Mitch White.

Other teams are also afraid to offend the Alphabet Community. The average age of a Major League Baseball fan who attends games is significantly higher than for the other Major pro sports in North America. Almost every stadium in the league has plenty of empty seats at every game, even for teams with good attendance. This is why the pitch clock was introduced, why both Leagues now have a DH, and why extra innings start with a runner on second base.

Games were too damned slow to attract and hold the youth market, with their notoriously short attention spans. Families with young children are reluctant to attend mid week night games, when there is a good possibility that the game won't be completed by 10:30 PM, as there will likely also be considerable additional time spent returning home.


While the Alphabet Community does not represent a large percentage of the attendance for live team sports, anything which offends them also offends the sizable demographic which takes personal offence on their behalf.

It would have been insignificant if Bass had tweeted that he thought the Bud Lite Trans promotion was a tactical error from the Bud suits. Bud Lite is consumed in the back of pickup trucks and in trailer homes, or by anyone who buys the cheapest brand at the store. Alphabet People don't and won't consume the product in any significant quantity; they're much more likely to buy a smaller quantity of a more expensive imported brand.

Bass crossed the line when he incited other people to join the boycott of Budweiser products. Baseball is a Show, and one of the unwritten rules of Show Business is that you do not piss off the folks who pay the bills. Budweiser does a lot of advertising, and a lot of that advertising is during team sports.

I don't think professional team owners care a lot about attracting the Alphabet Community to their events, but they do care a lot about not wanting those same people to publicly voice negative opinions about the sport.
 
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tml

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Manoah will start against Detroit on Friday. Sportsnet 590 is broadcasting the announcement by Schneider.
 
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maurice93

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How's our former GM doing these days? Remember, the one that Shapiro chastized for depleteing the prospects from our farm system.
AA did a below average / bad job with the farm system. It was not good when he left and while he developed a few pitchers (Stroman / Sanchez) there was no position player of good caliber that was developed and reached the majors in his entire 8 year run, -- the best was Kevin Pillar.

AA's success was largely built off 3 brilliant moves:
1) Bautista cheap off the scrap heap
2) Encarnacion on the cheap (not sure if it was waivers or a jobber trade)
3) The Donaldson trade

But without developing talent the Jays got old quickly by 2016.

Here is the sad thing:
1) Shapiro / Atkins did a very good job developing talent in Cleveland. Right now with the Jays, the system stinks. They are not doing a good job in system development.
2) AA has done a great job developing, accumulating and managing talent in Atlanta. But he did below average in developing talent in Toronto.
 
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maurice93

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But over the last 30 days (approximately the same time Bass pitched) Cimber's stats were much worse than Bass.

And by quite a bit too

None of those stats represent what Cimber was doing before te Bass release date.

Cimber got injured in April - came back May 23. Between May 23 and Bass' demotion date he pitched 8 innings and gave up 3 runs.. many of those innings were in high leverage situations. His ERA was indeed 3.94 on that date.

It certainly made no sense to choose to waive him (and lose him) at this time. He was pitching better than Bass for the season, pitching more (since Bass had no trust of the manager), and was used in leverage (albeit skeptically). He would have been claimed on waivers unlike Bass.

Unfortunately he stank thereafter, but you can only make decisions with what you know at the time. At the time Cimber was by far the right call. and the players would have been more angry with that move than a Bass move, because they know it would have been purely a cost cut since they lose him on waivers for nothing.

Of course with how Cimber did afterwards, the team would have been better without him.

Ultimately the issue is not Bass, its not Cimber, its not politics. Its that Shapiro / Atkins have done a horrible job with organizational depth this year, via fringe signings or developing new prospects.
 
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maurice93

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Manoah will start against Detroit on Friday. Sportsnet 590 is broadcasting the announcement by Schneider.
I don't like it (although to be fair i don't know everything the Jays are seeing in his development). I think he needed more time to work on his confidence / develop consistency in his mechanics before getting recalled. He threw a lot of balls last night (42 of 89) He is way too important a piece longer term, to try to rush back without fully figuring things out. He is not arbitration eligible until 2025 (so he is cheap .. less than a $1,000,000 this year and next) and he will also has multiple options remaining so he can be demoted to the minors again this year and next to figure things out. I don't understand the rush. Pick up some fringe starter at the deadline and cross your fingers. I certainly hope I am wrong.

The Jays must have been really impressed last night, or saw something in his mechanics that suggested he could make a temporary chance.
 

maurice93

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Cimber.

If not demote, put him on the IL with a fake injury
But he was pitching OK on June 8th - better than Bass due to leverage.

Thankfully now he is on the DL - he will get up to a 30 day rehab stint to figure out (I assume the Jays are not rushing to call him back)
He might never play another Jays game again - I can't see the Jays bringing him back, as his minimum arbitration number next year if retained is $3.1 million.
 

shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
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How's our former GM doing these days? Remember, the one that Shapiro chastized for depleteing the prospects from our farm system.
His teams have been highly competitive wherever he has gone.

It's only been 8 years. Clearly an insufficient amount of time for the Jays to have developed new talent on their own. 🙄

But they will have had enough time to hugely boost seating prices for next year.
 

maurice93

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Mar 29, 2006
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I would have waived Mitch White.

Other teams are also afraid to offend the Alphabet Community. The average age of a Major League Baseball fan who attends games is significantly higher than for the other Major pro sports in North America. Almost every stadium in the league has plenty of empty seats at every game, even for teams with good attendance. This is why the pitch clock was introduced, why both Leagues now have a DH, and why extra innings start with a runner on second base.

Games were too damned slow to attract and hold the youth market, with their notoriously short attention spans. Families with young children are reluctant to attend mid week night games, when there is a good possibility that the game won't be completed by 10:30 PM, as there will likely also be considerable additional time spent returning home.


While the Alphabet Community does not represent a large percentage of the attendance for live team sports, anything which offends them also offends the sizable demographic which takes personal offence on their behalf.

It would have been insignificant if Bass had tweeted that he thought the Bud Lite Trans promotion was a tactical error from the Bud suits. Bud Lite is consumed in the back of pickup trucks and in trailer homes, or by anyone who buys the cheapest brand at the store. Alphabet People don't and won't consume the product in any significant quantity; they're much more likely to buy a smaller quantity of a more expensive imported brand.

Bass crossed the line when he incited other people to join the boycott of Budweiser products. Baseball is a Show, and one of the unwritten rules of Show Business is that you do not piss off the folks who pay the bills. Budweiser does a lot of advertising, and a lot of that advertising is during team sports.


I don't think professional team owners care a lot about attracting the Alphabet Community to their events, but they do care a lot about not wanting those same people to publicly voice negative opinions about the sport.
You can't make a strong case, or in my view a correct case for White being released over Bass. Which is why I don't understand the political outrage here - the move made sense from a baseball perspective, or at least was a decision that could be argued either way.

Both sides have tried to use him to argue or validate their politics, when in fact the answer is that he sucked and was the odd man out for baseball reasons at June 8.

The left wrongly exalted in Bass demotion claiming it was a victory for someone that upset them, when really it was about no spot being available for Bass for baseball reasons. The Jays kept him for a while.

The right got angry in Bass demotion thinking it was purely political, when in fact there was no spot open for him for baseball reasons.

----------

White is younger, cost-controlled, and potentially filled a long reliever role / swingman role that they needed. Can't see how you can say Bass was the right call purely from baseball.

From a pure baseball perspective the right move was this.
1) Recall White on June 8(which they did)
2) DFA Bass on June 8, since you know he will not be claimed due to his salary commitment for 2023 and 2024 (which they did)
3) You are then permitted up to 10 days to figure out what to do with Bass. (recall, release, demote (with his permission))

1 and 2 were the right calls at the time. Regarding #3, the Jays chose to release him several days after he was DFA'd. This is the part that can be debated. But his DFA on June 8, the right baseball move, which was not a release, caused so much attention and controversy, that bringing him back 10 days later was no longer feasable.
 
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maurice93

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His teams have been highly competitive wherever he has gone.

It's only been 8 years. Clearly an insufficient amount of time for the Jays to have developed new talent on their own. 🙄

But they will have had enough time to hugely boost seating prices for next year.
The Jays were not highly competive over the course of AA's term here. They were generally mediocre. They had 2 playoff teams, but were headed on a downward trajectory at the end of the AA era, because there was a lack of young cost controlled positional talent that came up during AA's tenure. When Shapiro / Atkins arrived the team was in great shape moving past 2015. The team got bad very quickly in 2016 not because of Shatkins. AA did leave the gift of Vladimir Guerrero, but he was several years away.

I think about the same thing can be said for Shapiro / Atkins. They had 2 good teams (2021/2022), and now have a team that appears to be on the decline / capped out in terms of potential due to a questionable farm system.

As mentioned above its disappointing because AA has done a great job with the system in Atlanta (but not Toronto), and Shatkins did a great job with it in Cleveland (with mixed success initially in Toronto, that is now below average)
 
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shack

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White filled a long reliever role / swingman role that they needed...
...for when they felt the game was pretty much a losing proposition.

He's been shit since he got here. Both guys were/are losing propositions for Toronto. Since Bass is a dickhead, good riddance for non-baseball reasons.
 

maurice93

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...for when they felt the game was pretty much a losing proposition.

He's been shit since he got here. Both guys were/are losing propositions for Toronto. Since Bass is a dickhead, good riddance for non-baseball reasons.
White has not been that terrible so far. Nothing that good either. 8 innings, 1.38 WHIP, 3.38 ERA. He hasn't really hurt them so far which was expected given how bad he was in Buffalo.

Indeed you are dealing with a bunch of low level, low performing, low leverage reliever types. It comes down to roles in the end, who could potentially be something more - White made more sense baseball wise by a small margin and nothing more. At that quality level if you are a dickhead it won't help your cause. The Bass case would have been more interesting if it was somebody of actual value - I am spending way too much time being triggered by those who are trying to make this "political" move seem like a big blow to the Jays.

Bass was emboldened by the fact that he had another 3 million of guaranteed contracts no matter how he acted -- he has also nicely set himself up for some Fox News type victim work in the future when he was a victim due to his own on the field failures.
 
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shack

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White has not been that terrible so far. Nothing that good either. 8 innings, 1.38 WHIP, 3.38 ERA. He hasn't really hurt them so far which was expected given how bad he was in Buffalo.

Indeed you are dealing with a bunch of low level, low performing, low leverage reliever types. It comes down to roles in the end, who could potentially be something more - White made more sense baseball wise by a small margin and nothing more. At that quality level if you are a dickhead it won't help your cause. The Bass case would have been more interesting if it was somebody of actual value - I am spending way too much time being triggered by those who are trying to make this "political" move seem like a big blow to the Jays.

Bass was emboldened by the fact that he had another 3 million of guaranteed contracts no matter how he acted -- he has also nicely set himself up for some Fox News type victim work in the future when he was a victim due to his own on the field failures.
As always, a good take on things.
 
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