Toronto council votes in favour of Scarborough subway in major victory for Rob Ford

[groggy]

+1

No matter what happens Ford will use this as a cudgel, his base will lap it up, and he may actually get public buy in.

-If they find the money: "Ford builds Subway"
-If they take the money from another project: "For Builds Subway" (and you won't hear much about, 'Those whiny bastards over there'.)
-If they end up with LRT, Ford will talk about elites and bullies, and depriving the poor folks in Scarborough.
-If the whole thing gets scrapped because of dithering, Ford will talk about elites and bullies, and depriving the poor folks in Scarborough.

-If the subway gets built, its going to be years before it happens, more studies needed, routes planned etc. Ford won't be around when the first shovel hits the ground.
-If they find the money from another project council's support for the subway is ended and it goes back to LRT, check the decision.
-If they end up with the LRT, the subway just gets bundled up with the ferris wheel and the 'private sector will build it', in the list of failures. His base may see it, but they will also see he can't get anything done and even voted to raise taxes.
-If the whole thing gets scrapped, Ford becomes the mayor who took us from the Metrolinx plan that was in placed, financed and in progress to nothing. He'll be known as a disaster.

And council can say to their voters, they voted for the subway, but Ford couldn't get it done. They gave him the chance and he failed.
They can try to blame Ontario, but Wynn can easily argue that they were constant from day 1 with their support for transit, they had money on the table but Ford didn't know what he was doing. Listening to Murray's interviews since the vote they sound very clear and smart about the matter. Ford will be left as the person who didn't understand the numbers.
-If the whole thing gets scrapped

 

[Moviefan-2]

They can try to blame Ontario, but Wynn can easily argue that they were constant from day 1 with their support for transit, they had money on the table but Ford didn't know what he was doing. Listening to Murray's interviews since the vote they sound very clear and smart about the matter.

Even the most partisan Liberals are going to have a tough time swallowing that line of bull.

I don't even know where to start.

Well, let's go with Glen Murray sounding "very clear and smart about the matter." On Thursday, he was badmouthing Karen Stintz. On Friday, he was all hugs and kisses with Stintz (http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/stintz-murray-reconcile-after-spat-over-scarborough-subway-1.1374365).

And, really... you're counting on Glen Murray to deliver the message. Murray is a loose cannon who has been publicly slapped down under both McGuinty and Wynne, as he was forced to issue corrections to his own statements in the media (eg., his three-cubed ideas for post-secondary education).

Even more laughable is the idea that this Liberal government will accuse Ford of not understanding the numbers.

Hilarious. Surely, this wouldn't be coming from the same government that predicted its Samsung deal would create 16,000 jobs (actual number of jobs created: 900).

And let's not forget that gas plant that Kathleen Wynne said it would only cost $40 million to close.

The Ford Haters can salivate all they want but they have to make some effort to get in touch with reality. If Wynne blows this, she wears it.

 

[fuji]

The city is now asking for more money than it originally was. The province has not changed its budget.

 

[Moviefan-2]

The city is now asking for more money than it originally was. The province has not changed its budget.

It was about a year ago that you got all excited when Karen Stintz unveiled her big plan for transit.

That plan, as you'll recall, included provincial dollars that hadn't actually been budgeted. That didn't stop you and others from praising it to the moon.

The reality is this: Transportation Minister Glen Murray and Liberal candidate Mitzie Hunter have been promising voters in Scarborough they will get a new subway.

Wynne's Liberals will either keep that promise, or they will break their promise. It's that simple.

This is 2013, not 2003. People are no longer willing to give the Liberals the benefit of the doubt when they say one thing during an election, then do the exact opposite after the election is over. Nor are they willing to tolerate Liberal excuses about how it's always somebody else's fault whenever they break their promises.

If Wynne breaks her promise, she'll wear it.

 

[boodog]

It was about a year ago that you got all excited when Karen Stintz unveiled her big plan for transit.

That plan, as you'll recall, included provincial dollars that hadn't actually been budgeted. That didn't stop you and others from praising it to the moon.

The reality is this: Transportation Minister Glen Murray and Liberal candidate Mitzie Hunter have been promising voters in Scarborough they will get a new subway.

Wynne's Liberals will either keep that promise, or they will break their promise. It's that simple.

This is 2013, not 2003. People are no longer willing to give the Liberals the benefit of the doubt when they say one thing during an election, then do the exact opposite after the election is over. Nor are they willing to tolerate Liberal excuses about how it's always somebody else's fault whenever they break their promises.

If Wynne breaks her promise, she'll wear it.

Mitzie Hunter and the Liberal may fool the Scarborough voters once in this by-election but the Judgement Day, in the form of Provincial General Election, is right around the corner.

 

[fuji]

It was about a year ago that you got all excited when Karen Stintz unveiled her big plan for transit.

That plan, as you'll recall, included provincial dollars that hadn't actually been budgeted. That didn't stop you and others from praising it to the moon.

The reality is this: Transportation Minister Glen Murray and Liberal candidate Mitzie Hunter have been promising voters in Scarborough they will get a new subway.

Wynne's Liberals will either keep that promise, or they will break their promise. It's that simple.

This is 2013, not 2003. People are no longer willing to give the Liberals the benefit of the doubt when they say one thing during an election, then do the exact opposite after the election is over. Nor are they willing to tolerate Liberal excuses about how it's always somebody else's fault whenever they break their promises.

If Wynne breaks her promise, she'll wear it.

None of which changes the fact that the city is asking the province to spend hundreds of millions of dollars that are not in the budget, adding hundreds of millions to the provinces debt.

85 million of which will be flushed down the toilet by the flip flopping.

It is asking the province to kick in almost 30% more money than it signed up for. The province did not promise a subway at any cost and voters outside Scarborough are going to balk at the price tag.

 

[Moviefan-2]

None of which changes the fact that the city is asking the province to spend hundreds of millions of dollars that are not in the budget, adding hundreds of millions to the provinces debt.

85 million of which will be flushed down the toilet by the flip flopping.

It is asking the province to kick in almost 30% more money than it signed up for.

Apparently, the Glen Murray/Karen Stintz solution is ... to ask the feds to kick in more money than what they signed up for.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...w2kck061VQ!-1525376570/?ts=130720143912&ord=1

The hatchet buried, the reconciled representatives of the two lower levels of government even agreed on a method for raising the rest of the cash to complete the subway.

“We’ll work together to make sure the federal government contributes their fair share,” Ms. Sintz said.

“Our federal cousins, who we know love Scarborough just as much as we do -- we will get them to the table,” Mr. Murray agreed.

It would seem the Wynne government doesn't have any issue with that type of budgeting. Nor does it have a problem making promises based on that type of budgeting.

 

[fuji]

"This thing is going to cost way more than we thought. Hey Ontario why don't you pay the entire overage."

I think at a minimum the Province can reasonably ask the city to split the overage, perhaps three ways with the Feds. Alternately cut one of the stations out, or delay its construction, to stay within budget. Or implement new funding like road tolls on the Gardiner and DVP.

I don't think that the spin of blaming the province gets Ford off the hook.

 

[spraggamuffin]

We have the Don Jail with prisoners already living off taxpayers money.

Rob Ford has experience coaching and fraternizing with seedy characters.

I think he could put together a chain gang.

 

[Moviefan-2]

"This thing is going to cost way more than we thought. Hey Ontario why don't you pay the entire overage."

I think at a minimum the Province can reasonably ask the city to split the overage, perhaps three ways with the Feds. Alternately cut one of the stations out, or delay its construction, to stay within budget. Or implement new funding like road tolls on the Gardiner and DVP.

I don't think that the spin of blaming the province gets Ford off the hook.

The problem for the Liberals is that it looks like they are making promises they don't necessarily intend to keep.

Indeed, that's pretty much the thrust of a Sue-Ann Levy column that appeared today.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/07/19/scarborough-subway-smells-like-another-liberal-con-job

Ford won't need to do much spinning if the Liberals are caught -- yet again -- making false promises to voters.

 

[GPIDEAL]

Well, I hope the Liberals don't become Fiberals again.

I drove down Eglinton. If they put an LRT there, it won't work unless they can widen the street, as there is plenty of land around the street to expropriate. Above ground LRTs are glorified streetcars. I think tree huggers like them because they don't like cars, and LRTs will restrict cars on roads (like St. Clair). I'd rather keep buses because they won't reduce lanes.

Subways are the best way to go. Just hope that the Feds and the Province will kick in more money. I don't mind paying more taxes for subways.

 

[fuji]

The problem for the Liberals is that it looks like they are making promises they don't necessarily intend to keep.

Indeed, that's pretty much the thrust of a Sue-Ann Levy column that appeared today.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/07/19/scarborough-subway-smells-like-another-liberal-con-job

Ford won't need to do much spinning if the Liberals are caught -- yet again -- making false promises to voters.

I can't believe the Sun would ever write an article criticising the liberals. I bet the millions of liberal voters who read the Sun are seriously considering switching to support the NDP now.

 

[fuji]

Well, I hope the Liberals don't become Fiberals again.

I drove down Eglinton. If they put an LRT there, it won't work unless they can widen the street, as there is plenty of land around the street to expropriate. Above ground LRTs are glorified streetcars. I think tree huggers like them because they don't like cars, and LRTs will restrict cars on roads (like St. Clair). I'd rather keep buses because they won't reduce lanes.

Subways are the best way to go. Just hope that the Feds and the Province will kick in more money. I don't mind paying more taxes for subways.

Streetcars carry more people and are much more pleasant to ride on than a bus. Anyone who actually uses transit prefers subways to streetcars and streetcars to busses. Only car drivers who never take transit prefer busses. People hate taking a bus.

Streetcars cost a fraction of what subways do and are the best option when there isn't money for a subway.

 

[Moviefan-2]

I can't believe the Sun would ever write an article criticising the liberals. I bet the millions of liberal voters who read the Sun are seriously considering switching to support the NDP now.

Does that mean you think the Liberals will keep their promise to deliver a new Scarborough subway?

http://www.votehunter.ca/News/1451?l=EN

 

[boodog]

Does that mean you think the Liberals will keep their promise to deliver a new Scarborough subway?

http://www.votehunter.ca/News/1451?l=EN

"This subway expansion will also deliver economic development and create jobs. From my conversations at the doors, residents have been clear that this is a priority issue for them" she admits.

 

[fuji]

Does that mean you think the Liberals will keep their promise to deliver a new Scarborough subway?

http://www.votehunter.ca/News/1451?l=EN

I don't know the Sun hasn't told us what to think yet.

 

[Moviefan-2]

I don't know the Sun hasn't told us what to think yet.

I see. It doesn't sound like you have much faith in Liberal promises.

 

[fuji]

I see. It doesn't sound like you have much faith in Liberal promises.

I am still waiting for the Sun to tell me what we should think.

 

[boodog]

I don't know the Sun hasn't told us what to think yet.

http://www.votehunter.ca/News/1451?l=EN

"Statement from Mitzie Hunter the Ontario Liberal Candidate for Scarborough- Guildwood on Scarborough Subway Expansion

Today residents in Scarborough-Guildwood received the clarity they deserve on subway expansion to Scarborough.

As a person who has experienced the delays and issues faced by residents everyday with regards to transit in Scarborough, it was important for me to be present to hear about the future of transit in Scarborough.

I am supporting the expansion of subway to Scarborough because residents in Scarborough deserve high quality transit to get them moving easily and seamlessly. This subway expansion will also deliver economic development and create jobs.

From my conversations at the doors, residents have been clear that this is a priority issue for them, and they deserve a strong voice to bring that clarity to Queen’s Park. They need a strong representative that will be speaking on their behalf and can be effective in achieving results."



This isn't from The Sun.

Do you agree with Mitzie Hunter, parachute candidate from downtown Toronto , on Scarborough subway extension?

Do you have faith in Mitzie Hunter, the flip flop artist from previous LRT proposal, to deliver the subway to Scarborough?

What do you think the reaction will be from Liberals in Queen's Park if Mitzie Hunter so naively actually reminds them, after the by-election, their promise on subway?

 

[fuji]

I think asking the Province to pick up the entire cost over run is a bit rich. The Province is not obstructing subways, it has made clear how much money it had budgeted for transit and agreed that it can be spent on subways.

Claiming that it obstructs subways because it won't fork over almost 30% more than it had pledged is nonsense.

The city should either propose a plan that fits the budget, or come up with some or all of the cost overage itself.