Toronto to rename Dundas Street
- Thread starter bazokajoe
- Start date
There are now people accusing William Osler of being racist.
RE: Sir William Osler and racism | CMAJ
Honestly, nobody really cares on who found the first medical residency programs and who discovered the insulin nowadays. They have become very little relevant in today's economy and society.
As per the success of Hong Kong, the people of Hong Kong is the one who made the success story because they work super super hard. The success of Hong Kong did not come from their former British colonial masters but came from the people of Hong Kong themselves.
If people want to say that British Empire made a success in Hong Kong, what about another hundreds of countries in Africa, Asia, Caribbean, middle east and Pacific Island countries? Are those countries success like Hong Kong because of their former British colonial master? I don't think so... Looking at many countries in Africa, Caribbean, middle east and some Asian countries who were the colony of British Empire, hundred of those countries are nothing like Hong Kong even they were all colony of British Empire.
As of 2018, Hong Kong's GDP was only 2.7% of China. So Hong Kong's GDP is very small and has very little or no significant comparing to China.
Hong Kong's GDP vs China in 2018
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Actually, Hong Kong started as an island of less than 2500 people eeking out a living in a desolate place. It was the establishment of the trading factories that attracted immigrants from the mainland and the subsequent prosperity. The western involvement in the imperial China is a blight on the history of many countries, but it is beyond any doubt that the British administration of Hong Kong was incredibly positive for those who chose to settle there- Europeans and the Chinese.
When the Sultan granted what is now the great city state of Singapore to the Brits, it was just swamp land.
Brits out of Northern Ireland.
67% in Republic favour united Ireland - poll (rte.ie)
You said "there is no proud moment to be a COLONY of another nation / people from other country.", which is asinine. You are right that many won't remember nor care about the people that made medical, scientific discoveries or invented technologies, but that wasn't my point. Many of those accomplishments earlier have a profound affect on society to this day. If you have diabetes, you are very aware of how important insulin is. Perhaps you don't like my examples because they were accomplishments made by white people. Then do your own research and find some non-white examples in any Commonwealth country or former colony. They don't even have to be in science, medicine, etc. I am sure you will find many things those regions should be proud if you choose to look. We definitely should be proud and celebrate the people I mentioned. The fact they were made in a Commonwealth country doesn't negate their contributions. If helping millions of people through medical, scientific or technological breakthroughs isn't worth celebrating, then I don't know what is.
I didn't say that the British Empire single-handedly made a success of Hong Kong. On the other hand, the British involvement was a catalyst for change that had profound affects on the people in the region. Try comparing the development of Hong Kong vs the rest of China during the colonial period. Hong Kong flourished while mainland China was at a near standstill. I guess you could say that Hong Kong was "coerced" into embracing the British, Western or capitalist way of thinking. On the other hand, that new way of thinking raised the living standards for millions of people. Mainland China was basically stunted until they started embracing capitalism starting in the 70's. Those reforms have lifted hundreds of millions of people out of extreme poverty in a very short time. That is definitely something to be proud of despite the social issues it has caused.
I believe this is the same problem that Indigenous in Canada are facing. In a way, those that isolate themselves in reserves are closed to new ideas and it stunted their growth.
"Could" the British, Spanish, Americans, etc. treated the indigenous people in their colonies better? Of course they could have, but that's not the point and it didn't happen that way. There were no human rights laws at the time, the UN didn't exist and society did not know any better. So we evolved as a society. The interesting thing is that despite living under the evil empire, people still made huge advances.
All of this idle talk about what should have or should not have happened back in the day, or how we name streets, buildings, etc doesn't do anything to help people in any real way. It only helps privileged groups feel less guilty about themselves, which is worse than colonialism IMO.
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Joseph Brant despite being a slave owner gets a pass for some reason. Have to wonder why
In reality we don't have to wonder at all
In reality we don't have to wonder at all
Seems you are aware of the Evil done here. Many are not! Maybe debate was the wrong word, I meant to say not let others deny or whitewash our history anymore. The official story has been one-sided for too long. Yea sure we cant change the past, but have done a shit job of learning from it. Nothing has been done for so long, any action is better than no action at all.
The Truth and reconciliation findings outlined how to go about much of what you are saying needs to be done. Those findings are a few years old now. No political will to implement the recommendations so far. GOV says we dont have the money. I say the money is there, and if not maybe take those tax evaders to court and bleed them dry, maybe tax corporations that move all the jobs offshore more than 15%, lots of money out there. Look how much they found for covid...
I hate that we boil it all down to this issue is more important/pressing than the other, and then act as if there was not enough money in this country to find solutions for all of the issues. WE HAVE THE MONEY! WE ALWAYS DID!
If the streets were named for Adolf Hitler would you not want the street name changed? Come on! Changing these names is a symbolic start, and will crate a snowball effect of greater changes to come. Gotta start somewhere. Wonscotanach Valley Parkway sounds better than Don Valley Parkway to me.
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What "official story" are you referring to exactly? How has it been one-sided and white-washed exactly? Feel free to post any articles you've found so that everyone can read and decide for themselves. Until you do, then we're just arguing over nothing. I am asking honestly, but I think it's very important to be precise about the details and more importantly solutions.
We can go after your so-called tax evaders, but who are these people? If you can't define these people or companies in precise terms then you're going after ghosts. "Tax corporations that move all the jobs offshore more than 15%" makes no sense. Maybe you were trying to say that you would tax corporations that move at least 15% of jobs off shore? But then you have to get into some serious debates. Like who decides on the percentage? What countries does it affect? More importantly, how sustainable and practical are those solutions? If you really wan to be "fair" about getting money to the reserves, then you should tax all Canadians. Use a portion of the HST so that it's nearly unavoidable. But then of course, how is that fair for people whose ancestors were not even in Canada at the time or had colonial pasts in their home country?
I would think the goal should be to help the Indigenous on and off reserve to develop educational and job opportunities so they can sustain themselves without having to rely on government subsidies. That does mean involving Indigenous more in modern Canadian life. I know that "involving or "integrating" ware scary words, but some of it must happen. Besides, they already have integrated to modern society to a degree. That also means asking tough questions about the sustainability of the reserve system itself because the cost of food, fuel, etc. are always going to be major constraints.
Addressing these issues are concrete actions. They are hard problems to solve, but we have to solve them first because that affects human life. Renaming things hardly qualifies as action IMO.
Should change it to Prince's symbol. Your GPS / Google Maps will have a fit with it though.The street formerly known as Dundas would be quite fitting, and true.
If we go after every historical figure who we now perceive as done something inappropriate in their day, there's going to be an awful lot of statues removed and streets renamed. We should use the opportunity to change the historical cirriculum as to the good and the bad our historical figures did. We would all be better off for the education.
There's actually something to that. Change it to Spruce Street and you would be forever hearing: "It's over on Spruce St.The street formerly known as Dundas would be quite fitting, and true.
Where?
You know, Dundas" In the Buffalo River is Unity Island (for, I dunno, 5 or 10 years). But a vast majority of people still know it as Squaw Island and probably will for at least 100 years...
Thats a stupid comparison because everyone knows who Hitler was, but virtually nobody knows who Henry Dundas was
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By extension, you have to go after the people that got the streets, buildings, statues, etc named after those historical figures. Same with the people involved with building said streets, buildings and statues. There's plenty of guilt to go around if you really want to point fingers.
Like you said, we can and should encourage people to read, think carefully about history, the effects and real world solutions to these problems. That takes actual effort though.
