Israel at war

[Valcazar]

So basically:

Trump: "Finish the job!!"
Biden: "Israel has not crossed Biden's redline"

Which even rhetorically is not the same thing.
That's before you get into actual policy.

While vetoing everything at the UN.

You think a Trump administration and a Biden administration are going to work the same at the UN?
Oh dear.

THAT is the difference you are referring to? As far as pro-Palestinians are concerned, it does not make a shred of difference whether a US president says "Finish the job" or "Israel has not crossed Biden's redline". The end result is the same where the US keeps providing military aid and political support to Israel.

So, you don't follow Israel-Palestine politics at all?
Your understanding is entirely limited to military aid and "political support" which you can't define?

Well, that explains a lot.

But your statement again hinges on the fundamentally erroneous assumption, that pro-Palestinians would vote for Biden if not for this issue.

No.
I am talking specifically about pro-Palestinians who would otherwise vote for Biden.
Obviously they wouldn't ALL vote for Biden otherwise.

I'm talking specifically about people who would prefer Biden's policies otherwise and will not vote for him because of this issue.

People who would never vote for either party because they have no policy issues they like or care about are already out of the equation.

The point I am making is that "voting third party" or "not voting" is ALWAYS indirectly a vote for one or another of the major parties if (and only if) you have any interest in any difference between the two parties.
If you truly and honestly see absolutely no difference in any issue between the parties, then it is a wash.

The moment you have a preference for ANYTHING between the two parties, then your vote for third party is a vote against the policies you claim you actually support.

All I have been trying to get people to admit, repeatedly, is that a vote for third party is an acknowledgement of that decision.
There are some very rare people who truly see no difference in any way between parties.
But lots of people just don't want to admit their revealed preferences and want to vote third party so that "their hands are clean".

If you argue that voting for a 3rd party is a vote against Biden, then it is similarly true that it is a vote against Trump. Your characterization that voting for a third party is solely a vote against Biden, is therefore incorrect.

No.
Voting third party when that party can't win isn't "a vote against both of the others" because it doesn't affect them. It's an entirely irrelevant vote in the actual structure of the election.
The only thing that matters is the vote differential between the two possible winners.
Who your vote would go to if you actually had to choose is the relevant issue.
If you had ANY preference, then choosing not to put that person is power is a choice to actually put the other person in power.

The practical and very tangible effect of a person voting third party (for whatever reason) is that it takes a vote away from BOTH Trump and Biden.

This is a complete misunderstanding of how a plurality system actually works.

 

[Leimonis]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1804653067498905893

 

[Butler1000]

Which even rhetorically is not the same thing.
That's before you get into actual policy.



You think a Trump administration and a Biden administration are going to work the same at the UN?
Oh dear.



So, you don't follow Israel-Palestine politics at all?
Your understanding is entirely limited to military aid and "political support" which you can't define?

Well, that explains a lot.



No.
I am talking specifically about pro-Palestinians who would otherwise vote for Biden.
Obviously they wouldn't ALL vote for Biden otherwise.

I'm talking specifically about people who would prefer Biden's policies otherwise and will not vote for him because of this issue.

People who would never vote for either party because they have no policy issues they like or care about are already out of the equation.

The point I am making is that "voting third party" or "not voting" is ALWAYS indirectly a vote for one or another of the major parties if (and only if) you have any interest in any difference between the two parties.
If you truly and honestly see absolutely no difference in any issue between the parties, then it is a wash.

The moment you have a preference for ANYTHING between the two parties, then your vote for third party is a vote against the policies you claim you actually support.

All I have been trying to get people to admit, repeatedly, is that a vote for third party is an acknowledgement of that decision.
There are some very rare people who truly see no difference in any way between parties.
But lots of people just don't want to admit their revealed preferences and want to vote third party so that "their hands are clean".



No.
Voting third party when that party can't win isn't "a vote against both of the others" because it doesn't affect them. It's an entirely irrelevant vote in the actual structure of the election.
The only thing that matters is the vote differential between the two possible winners.
Who your vote would go to if you actually had to choose is the relevant issue.
If you had ANY preference, then choosing not to put that person is power is a choice to actually put the other person in power.



This is a complete misunderstanding of how a plurality system actually works.

Man, who lot of obfuscation to unpack there.....what a crock.

 

[Valcazar]

Dude. There is literally no difference. Just stop. It's why he has lost the Muslim vote. Why the Muslim Democrat mayors in Michigan refused to meet with any party officials for support for Biden.

Buden is old school full in Israel supporter. He will let them wipe out Gaza if they choose to. Just stop. This lying just kills your credibility.

I didn't say he isn't an old school full-in Israel supporter.
His Israel policy is indefensible.
(Which is why - given your "Israel should commit war crimes" stance - I'm impressed by how deep your hatred for Democrats goes that you are taking the "It is bad that he is Genocide Joe" tactic here.)

It is quite possible for his policy to be indefensible and for Trump to be worse.

That you've always had trouble with anything more complicated than "People me like = Good! People me don't like = Bad!" doesn't change that.

 

[Klatuu]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1804653067498905893

Inane deflection

 

[Butler1000]

I didn't say he isn't an old school full-in Israel supporter.
His Israel policy is indefensible.
(Which is why - given your "Israel should commit war crimes" stance - I'm impressed by how deep your hatred for Democrats goes that you are taking the "It is bad that he is Genocide Joe" tactic here.)

It is quite possible for his policy to be indefensible and for Trump to be worse.

That you've always had trouble with anything more complicated than "People me like = Good! People me don't like = Bad!" doesn't change that.

Lol. Semantics. Its all about sending arms, giving UN cover, and looking the other way. Its just the GOP is honest. The Dems want the same result. But try to claim they don't.

Results matter.

 

[Butler1000]

You are saying a lot of things without saying anything at all. What is the difference? a) Political support for Israel on the international stage. b) Support and protection for Israel at the UN. c) Military aid for Israel are the 3 primary points of contention.

What has Biden done that helps the Palestinian cause? Nothing. What will Trump do? Nothing. Looking past the rhetorical mumbo jumbo, they are 2 sides of the same coin.

Even if you were talking about pro-Palestinians who would have voted for Biden, but who have now decided to vote 3rd party because of dissatisfaction with Biden on his positions on Palestine, it is still not "support for Trump". Biden's position on Palestine has turned them anti-Biden. They are already anti-Trump. So the right conclusion will be to say that they are both anti-Biden and anti-Trump.

Their 3rd party vote is taking away a vote from BOTH Trump and Biden. That is what is actually and objectively happening. You'd be wrong in calling that pro-Trump, when it is objectively true that by voting 3rd party or by not voting at all, they just took away a vote FROM Trump as much as they did Biden!

His position is the Democrats are ENTITLED to their vote and DENYING them their rightful vote makes them traitors.

 

[Klatuu]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1804468130581725262

 

[shack]

Inane deflection

You're smarter that Gary Kasparov? LOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

[shack]

You are saying a lot of things without saying anything at all. What is the difference? a) Political support for Israel on the international stage. b) Support and protection for Israel at the UN. c) Military aid for Israel are the 3 primary points of contention.

What has Biden done that helps the Palestinian cause? Nothing. What will Trump do? Nothing. Looking past the rhetorical mumbo jumbo, they are 2 sides of the same coin.

Even if you were talking about pro-Palestinians who would have voted for Biden, but who have now decided to vote 3rd party because of dissatisfaction with Biden on his positions on Palestine, it is still not "support for Trump". Biden's position on Palestine has turned them anti-Biden. They are already anti-Trump. So the right conclusion will be to say that they are both anti-Biden and anti-Trump.

Their 3rd party vote is taking away a vote from BOTH Trump and Biden. That is what is actually and objectively happening. You'd be wrong in calling that pro-Trump, when it is objectively true that by voting 3rd party or by not voting at all, they just took away a vote FROM Trump as much as they did Biden!

Or this simply one more in a line of situations where a logical argument just flies waaay over your head. You repeatedly demonstrate your lack of understanding logic. It's not just when you try debating with me. LOL.

 

[Valcazar]

You are saying a lot of things without saying anything at all. What is the difference? a) Political support for Israel on the international stage. b) Support and protection for Israel at the UN. c) Military aid for Israel are the 3 primary points of contention.

If that's your only three measures and you don't think any difference in degree of support of any of those things counts, then you are right - they are identical.

Like I said, there are people who think there is no difference between the parties because both support private insurance - it doesn't matter what form that insurance takes.
There are people who think that both parties are the same because both support income taxes, regardless of the rates or tax schemes.

That's your right.

What has Biden done that helps the Palestinian cause? Nothing. What will Trump do? Nothing. Looking past the rhetorical mumbo jumbo, they are 2 sides of the same coin.

Some people think there is a difference between doing nothing and making it worse.
But I get it - for some people there is no difference between cutting off humanitarian aid and not giving enough of it.

Even if you were talking about pro-Palestinians who would have voted for Biden, but who have now decided to vote 3rd party because of dissatisfaction with Biden on his positions on Palestine, it is still not "support for Trump".

I didn't say it was "support for Trump".
I said it was helping Trump win or deciding Trump winning and all that happens isn't as important as Biden losing.

Biden's position on Palestine has turned them anti-Biden. They are already anti-Trump. So the right conclusion will be to say that they are both anti-Biden and anti-Trump.

And they have NO ability to produce a result that isn't Biden or Trump.
So therefore their decision is to decide how much they influence the choice one way or another given which of the two results they would prefer.
They can claim they are voting "anti-both" as much as they like.
It's just not what they are actually accomplishing.

This isn't complicated. In fact, most people figure this out. Why do you think third party voting rates are so low, and more importantly, go back down the next election after they go up?
Because people figure out the consequences of what they did and how it isn't what they wanted.

Their 3rd party vote is taking away a vote from BOTH Trump and Biden. That is what is actually and objectively happening. You'd be wrong in calling that pro-Trump, when it is objectively true that by voting 3rd party or by not voting at all, they just took away a vote FROM Trump as much as they did Biden!

I get it.
You don't understand voting in a plurality system.

I have been avoiding putting in the work doing a series of posts educating people on this, but I may just have to.

 

[Valcazar]

Its just the GOP is honest. The Dems want the same result. But try to claim they don't.

This is nonsense.

Results matter.

You don't believe that, though.
You've repeatedly talked about how marketing and perception are what matter, not results.

 

[Valcazar]

His position is the Democrats are ENTITLED to their vote and DENYING them their rightful vote makes them traitors.

Not at all.
My position is you should know what you are doing with your vote and choose according to the outcome you want to achieve.

 

[Valcazar]

Those are the 3 primary issues that impact Palestinian sovereignty. What has Biden done for that cause? What do you think Trump is likely to do? They both wont do anything to help.

I fully expect Trump to make it worse.

Degree of support, etc are either inconsequential and minor, or are purely rhetoric and talking points that do not result in changes to the status quo that is very much needed.

I didn't realize you thought the US has no power to affect the Israel situation at all.
Interesting.

But let's accept your premise - Absolutely nothing you do can affect US policy on Israel.
There is no difference in any way whatsoever between Biden and Trump.

So therefore, since your vote can't affect that at all, your decision about who to vote for should be made on all their other policies, no?

I do know people like Butler think there is no difference on any policy front in any way between the two parties.
Others disagree.

Instead Biden has been giving BILLIONS in aid to Israel, vetoes anything against Israel, vetoes full membership for Palestine etc. In short he has essentially HURT the Palestinian cause, and the only difference between him and Trump is that Trump is just more racist and brash and says "Finish the job!!".

You slept through Trump's administration concerning Israel, didn't you?

The fact that they have no ability to produce a result that isn't Biden or Trump is not their doing. It is the nature of the system.

Exactly.
So voting as if that isn't true would be stupid, wouldn't it?

And they are not claiming anything. That is what they are actually doing. They did not give their vote to either Trump or Biden. They took 1 vote away from both parties and gave it to someone else whether or not they had any chance of winning.

Yes.
And that has an effect on the result.
I don't know why you have such a problem understanding that.

This is also not about plurality voting. This is about your characterization of a 3rd party vote as being SOLELY anti-Biden, when it is both anti-Biden and anti-Trump.
And if your argument is going to be that you are characterizing it that way because that particular voter, would have otherwise voted for Biden, well, that is how elections work. Policy positions change votes.

Yes.
And the choice there is "I am so Anti-Biden that I am ok with Trump winning."
Because there is no "But I'm not supporting Trump" in the system as it is set up.

Is it doing less to try and get Trump to win than if you voted for Trump directly?
Yes.
But it is still voting in a way to help Trump win, because the only way to not help Trump win if you would otherwise prefer Biden is to vote for Biden.
That's just the math of the system.

Now, you have said that you see no difference between the two so it honestly doesn't matter and there are people who believe that and then the third party vote or staying home is perfectly rational.
They don't care about who wins, so they don't vote to affect the winner.

But anyone who DOES care about who wins in any way is choosing between the two by voting or not voting.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Frankfooter]

What I find interesting - and won't let them off the hook for - is how virulently they want to deny they are making the choice they are making.

The way you shouldn't be let off the hook for admitting that you think Israel is likely committing genocide yet you also want to 'reward' Biden for his active aid of genocide.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1804607749155590292

 

[Frankfooter]

I absolutely do.
Why do you think I'm so opposed to people doing silly things that won't accomplish that?
I want people to take effective action to change the system.
Not voting and voting third party are the opposite of that.

You have yet to tell us how voting for Biden will help change the system or what your plan is to change the system.
I've noted multiple ways I've supported changing the system, you have dismissed all of them and proposed nothing.
Why?

 

[Frankfooter]

So neither of you are paying attention?

No worries about Trump's call for Israel to "Finish the job"?
The calls from Israel about how much Biden is hampering the war effort?
Trump's advisors calling for Palestinian expulsion from Gaza and full annexation of the West bank?
Trump's support and encouragement of war crimes as the best way to win? (Especially war crimes against Muslims.)

Or we can review some of Trump’s policy toward the Palestinians when in office.
- His government declared that it no longer considered the settlements to be illegal.
- Senior Trump administration officials questioned Palestinians’ ability to govern themselves.
- The Trump “peace plan” was negotiating only with Israel — the Palestinians were not included.
- He ended U.S. aid to Palestinians for things like hospitals, infrastructure and schools.

So yeah, the parties aren't the same, even here.

This is almost as dumb as people saying "The Democrats didn't do universal health care - there is no difference between the parties!".



No they aren't.
Or rather, they have to not understand the system they are voting in to believe that.
(Which, to be fair, is a problem. Lots of people are badly confused about this.)

So yes, they might be doing that in terms of "that is what they feel".
It just isn't actually what they are doing in terms of consequence.

But even using your logic, it is still them saying that either they have no preference between Biden and Trump on any issue or in any way - since those are the only two possible winners and refusing to pick one means you are refusing to distinguish - or that while they DO have a preference for one or the other on policy, it is more important that the one they would normally support lose.



Yes, I am, because that is the frame of the discussion.

Are there people who would prefer Trump in most ways, but because Trump is so pro-Israel they are not going to vote for him?
Maybe!

And they would also be acting stupidly from their point of view if they actually preferred Trump.

Remember, what is happening here is you are taking your vote away from the result you want.

So again, either you TRULY have no preference in any way between the two, or you do and are deluded about the effects of what you are doing with your vote.

Could there be a Trump supporter who is all in on Trump's policies but finds him too pro-Israel and so will vote third party?
Maybe!
But then they will also be doing exactly what I am saying, which is that they are ok contributing to Biden's victory. (Only more indirectly.)

Wow, I'm truly shocked at how politically naive you are with this post.

Your post infers you believe that Biden is somehow holding back the genocide and slowing it down, as if Biden's continual statements saying he supports a ceasefire and the two state solution are actually honest. As if those statements were followed by even the simplest actions. Every move by Biden so far has been to try to publicly show he is for peace while ever legislative move has been to arm and enable the genocide.

Short of sending in US bombers and nukes, there is little that rump could do that would be worse in the support of this genocide.

Biden has been trying to play both sides throughout, to publicly declare he's for peace while blocking all actions that can stop the genocide. Trump isn't smart enough to pull that off and doesn't care about issues other than his own fortune and popularity. He would have likely dropped support for Israel after the protests the way he dropped support for vaccines after his base became anti vaxxers.

 

[Frankfooter]

I am talking specifically about pro-Palestinians who would otherwise vote for Biden.
Obviously they wouldn't ALL vote for Biden otherwise.

You mean minorities and youth?
You mean progressive dems?

All I have been trying to get people to admit, repeatedly, is that a vote for third party is an acknowledgement of that decision.
There are some very rare people who truly see no difference in any way between parties.
But lots of people just don't want to admit their revealed preferences and want to vote third party so that "their hands are clean".

What you have been doing is watching Biden's reelection chances become worse and worse so keep trying to convince people that rump is worse than genocide. That its 'pragmatic' to support genocide because of your fear of what rump might do with a second presidency.

What you have not done is to admit that Biden's support of Israel is wrong, that the party needs to change and how to change it. Even though you have admitted that Israel is likely committing genocide you have not said that they are wrong to do so and the US is wrong to aid the genocide of Gaza.

Meanwhile, people are doing what they can.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1804607749155590292

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1804604324271525994

 

[Frankfooter]

zionists continue to act like nazis.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1804542832109068567

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1803457965711581356

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1804777073648480698

 

[Butler1000]

This is nonsense.



You don't believe that, though.
You've repeatedly talked about how marketing and perception are what matter, not results.

No it isn't. You just don't want to admit it.