Explain the difference in Israeli policy between the two parties.
What exactly is the difference between the 2 parties as it regards Palestine? Military aid and political support for Israel is always going to continue. Politicians on both sides are bought and paid for by AIPAC.
No they aren't.Again, someone who votes a third party, is voting against Trump as much as they are voting against Biden.
Yes, I am, because that is the frame of the discussion.So if characterizing their choice as "I dont mind Trump winning" is true, then it is equally correct to characterize it as "I dont mind Biden winning".
You are operating under the assumption that in the absence of the Israel Palestine issue, their vote would have gone to Biden and I am telling you that this is your assumption, not reality.
So no difference. Because when you get past the lip service its the same. Israel will always get its military funding, no matter what.So neither of you are paying attention?
No worries about Trump's call for Israel to "Finish the job"?
The calls from Israel about how much Biden is hampering the war effort?
Trump's advisors calling for Palestinian expulsion from Gaza and full annexation of the West bank?
Trump's support and encouragement of war crimes as the best way to win? (Especially war crimes against Muslims.)
Or we can review some of Trump’s policy toward the Palestinians when in office.
- His government declared that it no longer considered the settlements to be illegal.
- Senior Trump administration officials questioned Palestinians’ ability to govern themselves.
- The Trump “peace plan” was negotiating only with Israel — the Palestinians were not included.
- He ended U.S. aid to Palestinians for things like hospitals, infrastructure and schools.
So yeah, the parties aren't the same, even here.
This is almost as dumb as people saying "The Democrats didn't do universal health care - there is no difference between the parties!".
No they aren't.
Or rather, they have to not understand the system they are voting in to believe that.
(Which, to be fair, is a problem. Lots of people are badly confused about this.)
So yes, they might be doing that in terms of "that is what they feel".
It just isn't actually what they are doing in terms of consequence.
But even using your logic, it is still them saying that either they have no preference between Biden and Trump on any issue or in any way - since those are the only two possible winners and refusing to pick one means you are refusing to distinguish - or that while they DO have a preference for one or the other on policy, it is more important that the one they would normally support lose.
Yes, I am, because that is the frame of the discussion.
Are there people who would prefer Trump in most ways, but because Trump is so pro-Israel they are not going to vote for him?
Maybe!
And they would also be acting stupidly from their point of view if they actually preferred Trump.
Remember, what is happening here is you are taking your vote away from the result you want.
So again, either you TRULY have no preference in any way between the two, or you do and are deluded about the effects of what you are doing with your vote.
Could there be a Trump supporter who is all in on Trump's policies but finds him too pro-Israel and so will vote third party?
Maybe!
But then they will also be doing exactly what I am saying, which is that they are ok contributing to Biden's victory. (Only more indirectly.)
Not to you, apparently.So no difference. Because when you get past the lip service its the same. Israel will always get its military funding, no matter what.
Results matter.
Dude. There is literally no difference. Just stop. It's why he has lost the Muslim vote. Why the Muslim Democrat mayors in Michigan refused to meet with any party officials for support for Biden.Not to you, apparently.
Which even rhetorically is not the same thing.So basically:
Trump: "Finish the job!!"
Biden: "Israel has not crossed Biden's redline"
You think a Trump administration and a Biden administration are going to work the same at the UN?While vetoing everything at the UN.
So, you don't follow Israel-Palestine politics at all?THAT is the difference you are referring to? As far as pro-Palestinians are concerned, it does not make a shred of difference whether a US president says "Finish the job" or "Israel has not crossed Biden's redline". The end result is the same where the US keeps providing military aid and political support to Israel.
No.But your statement again hinges on the fundamentally erroneous assumption, that pro-Palestinians would vote for Biden if not for this issue.
No.If you argue that voting for a 3rd party is a vote against Biden, then it is similarly true that it is a vote against Trump. Your characterization that voting for a third party is solely a vote against Biden, is therefore incorrect.
This is a complete misunderstanding of how a plurality system actually works.The practical and very tangible effect of a person voting third party (for whatever reason) is that it takes a vote away from BOTH Trump and Biden.
Man, who lot of obfuscation to unpack there.....what a crock.Which even rhetorically is not the same thing.
That's before you get into actual policy.
You think a Trump administration and a Biden administration are going to work the same at the UN?
Oh dear.
So, you don't follow Israel-Palestine politics at all?
Your understanding is entirely limited to military aid and "political support" which you can't define?
Well, that explains a lot.
No.
I am talking specifically about pro-Palestinians who would otherwise vote for Biden.
Obviously they wouldn't ALL vote for Biden otherwise.
I'm talking specifically about people who would prefer Biden's policies otherwise and will not vote for him because of this issue.
People who would never vote for either party because they have no policy issues they like or care about are already out of the equation.
The point I am making is that "voting third party" or "not voting" is ALWAYS indirectly a vote for one or another of the major parties if (and only if) you have any interest in any difference between the two parties.
If you truly and honestly see absolutely no difference in any issue between the parties, then it is a wash.
The moment you have a preference for ANYTHING between the two parties, then your vote for third party is a vote against the policies you claim you actually support.
All I have been trying to get people to admit, repeatedly, is that a vote for third party is an acknowledgement of that decision.
There are some very rare people who truly see no difference in any way between parties.
But lots of people just don't want to admit their revealed preferences and want to vote third party so that "their hands are clean".
No.
Voting third party when that party can't win isn't "a vote against both of the others" because it doesn't affect them. It's an entirely irrelevant vote in the actual structure of the election.
The only thing that matters is the vote differential between the two possible winners.
Who your vote would go to if you actually had to choose is the relevant issue.
If you had ANY preference, then choosing not to put that person is power is a choice to actually put the other person in power.
This is a complete misunderstanding of how a plurality system actually works.
I didn't say he isn't an old school full-in Israel supporter.Dude. There is literally no difference. Just stop. It's why he has lost the Muslim vote. Why the Muslim Democrat mayors in Michigan refused to meet with any party officials for support for Biden.
Buden is old school full in Israel supporter. He will let them wipe out Gaza if they choose to. Just stop. This lying just kills your credibility.
Lol. Semantics. Its all about sending arms, giving UN cover, and looking the other way. Its just the GOP is honest. The Dems want the same result. But try to claim they don't.I didn't say he isn't an old school full-in Israel supporter.
His Israel policy is indefensible.
(Which is why - given your "Israel should commit war crimes" stance - I'm impressed by how deep your hatred for Democrats goes that you are taking the "It is bad that he is Genocide Joe" tactic here.)
It is quite possible for his policy to be indefensible and for Trump to be worse.
That you've always had trouble with anything more complicated than "People me like = Good! People me don't like = Bad!" doesn't change that.
His position is the Democrats are ENTITLED to their vote and DENYING them their rightful vote makes them traitors.You are saying a lot of things without saying anything at all. What is the difference? a) Political support for Israel on the international stage. b) Support and protection for Israel at the UN. c) Military aid for Israel are the 3 primary points of contention.
What has Biden done that helps the Palestinian cause? Nothing. What will Trump do? Nothing. Looking past the rhetorical mumbo jumbo, they are 2 sides of the same coin.
Even if you were talking about pro-Palestinians who would have voted for Biden, but who have now decided to vote 3rd party because of dissatisfaction with Biden on his positions on Palestine, it is still not "support for Trump". Biden's position on Palestine has turned them anti-Biden. They are already anti-Trump. So the right conclusion will be to say that they are both anti-Biden and anti-Trump.
Their 3rd party vote is taking away a vote from BOTH Trump and Biden. That is what is actually and objectively happening. You'd be wrong in calling that pro-Trump, when it is objectively true that by voting 3rd party or by not voting at all, they just took away a vote FROM Trump as much as they did Biden!
You're smarter that Gary Kasparov? LOLOLOLOLOLOLInane deflection
Or this simply one more in a line of situations where a logical argument just flies waaay over your head. You repeatedly demonstrate your lack of understanding logic. It's not just when you try debating with me. LOL.You are saying a lot of things without saying anything at all. What is the difference? a) Political support for Israel on the international stage. b) Support and protection for Israel at the UN. c) Military aid for Israel are the 3 primary points of contention.
What has Biden done that helps the Palestinian cause? Nothing. What will Trump do? Nothing. Looking past the rhetorical mumbo jumbo, they are 2 sides of the same coin.
Even if you were talking about pro-Palestinians who would have voted for Biden, but who have now decided to vote 3rd party because of dissatisfaction with Biden on his positions on Palestine, it is still not "support for Trump". Biden's position on Palestine has turned them anti-Biden. They are already anti-Trump. So the right conclusion will be to say that they are both anti-Biden and anti-Trump.
Their 3rd party vote is taking away a vote from BOTH Trump and Biden. That is what is actually and objectively happening. You'd be wrong in calling that pro-Trump, when it is objectively true that by voting 3rd party or by not voting at all, they just took away a vote FROM Trump as much as they did Biden!
If that's your only three measures and you don't think any difference in degree of support of any of those things counts, then you are right - they are identical.You are saying a lot of things without saying anything at all. What is the difference? a) Political support for Israel on the international stage. b) Support and protection for Israel at the UN. c) Military aid for Israel are the 3 primary points of contention.
Some people think there is a difference between doing nothing and making it worse.What has Biden done that helps the Palestinian cause? Nothing. What will Trump do? Nothing. Looking past the rhetorical mumbo jumbo, they are 2 sides of the same coin.
I didn't say it was "support for Trump".Even if you were talking about pro-Palestinians who would have voted for Biden, but who have now decided to vote 3rd party because of dissatisfaction with Biden on his positions on Palestine, it is still not "support for Trump".
And they have NO ability to produce a result that isn't Biden or Trump.Biden's position on Palestine has turned them anti-Biden. They are already anti-Trump. So the right conclusion will be to say that they are both anti-Biden and anti-Trump.
I get it.Their 3rd party vote is taking away a vote from BOTH Trump and Biden. That is what is actually and objectively happening. You'd be wrong in calling that pro-Trump, when it is objectively true that by voting 3rd party or by not voting at all, they just took away a vote FROM Trump as much as they did Biden!
This is nonsense.Its just the GOP is honest. The Dems want the same result. But try to claim they don't.
You don't believe that, though.Results matter.
Not at all.His position is the Democrats are ENTITLED to their vote and DENYING them their rightful vote makes them traitors.
I fully expect Trump to make it worse.Those are the 3 primary issues that impact Palestinian sovereignty. What has Biden done for that cause? What do you think Trump is likely to do? They both wont do anything to help.
I didn't realize you thought the US has no power to affect the Israel situation at all.Degree of support, etc are either inconsequential and minor, or are purely rhetoric and talking points that do not result in changes to the status quo that is very much needed.
You slept through Trump's administration concerning Israel, didn't you?Instead Biden has been giving BILLIONS in aid to Israel, vetoes anything against Israel, vetoes full membership for Palestine etc. In short he has essentially HURT the Palestinian cause, and the only difference between him and Trump is that Trump is just more racist and brash and says "Finish the job!!".
Exactly.The fact that they have no ability to produce a result that isn't Biden or Trump is not their doing. It is the nature of the system.
Yes.And they are not claiming anything. That is what they are actually doing. They did not give their vote to either Trump or Biden. They took 1 vote away from both parties and gave it to someone else whether or not they had any chance of winning.
Yes.This is also not about plurality voting. This is about your characterization of a 3rd party vote as being SOLELY anti-Biden, when it is both anti-Biden and anti-Trump.
And if your argument is going to be that you are characterizing it that way because that particular voter, would have otherwise voted for Biden, well, that is how elections work. Policy positions change votes.