Israel at war
- Thread starter Butler1000
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How am I "rewarding" Biden for this choice?
That only makes sense if you don't view the election as a choice between two options, but as a "reward/punish" structure.
Which I don't, because it is a very stupid way to view elections.
Voting for Biden won't change the system.
The voting part isn't about changing the system.
That pressure happens outside and through other venues.
Only when you've got some leverage and action via the other methods of civic action is voting going to come into play because you need a government to implement those changes.
Civil Rights was a massive change to the system - it wasn't won by voting first, then producing change.
It was won by pushing for change and then voting for governments who would support that change.
It's like labor activism - the primary mode is through labor action, but it the government aligns with corporations to crush strikes, then that labor action is doomed.
So no you don't get the system changed firstly through voting, but voting is an important part of what goes on.
Because this is a discussion about why "Making sure Biden loses" or "Voting third party to teach the Dems a lesson" isn't about changing the system.
That will do nothing at all to change the electoral system.
It certainly isn't about changing foreign policy or helping the Palestinians.
Even on your most anti-Biden rants, you can't say putting Trump into power will improve anything about any of the issues you claim to care about here.
I mean exactly what I said I mean.
You yourself have admitted that voting Trump in doesn't stop the genocide or affect it in any way.
Therefore, obviously, by your own calculation - this isn't a vote between "Trump or Genocide".
If that is what you truly believe, then the only reason to not vote Biden (if you think the Genocide is the only issue anyone should vote on) is to punish Biden for being president during the genocide.
Since you yourself admit nothing changes by doing this, then you are stating - quite clearly - that punishing Biden is more important than anything Trump will do as President.
You did, for a while, try to pitch the "We don't know the future so maybe Trump will be better about Israel/Palestine" argument.
You seem to have abandoned that, though.
My question to you, again and again, has been what helping Trump win gains you - even if the only issue in the world you care about is the Israel-Palestine situation.
My answer to that is "nothing" - it gains you absolutely nothing outside of an emotional satisfaction in "not supporting genocide" or the emotional satisfaction of "making Biden lose".
That would only apply if Trump was offering a better deal on Israel Palestine.
Then my choice would be "Do I support genocide to keep Trump out of power or not".
But since Trump isn't offering to do better - in fact he is saying the US isn't supporting Israel enough (and his past history involves cutting off humanitarian aid and no longer classifying settlements as illegal and other actions showing he is likely to follow through on the "we should do more to help the Israeli right wing's ambitions"). So therefore there is no "It is pragmatic to support genocide because of fear of what a Trump administration will do". The genocide is completely off the table in the election.
So again, even if the ONLY ISSUE I CARE ABOUT is the genocide, there is no reason to help Trump win.
I have repeatedly said his policy is wrong, in fact it is indefensible.
What I have said is that voting third party and putting Trump into power will not change it.
I get that it really upsets you that things don't work that way, but you pouting doesn't
Another reason you support making sure Biden loses and putting Trump in charge, I suppose, since he has promised to crack down on people dong this in the US.
Trump Plan for Pro-Palestinian Protesters: “Throw Them Out of the Country”
Trump made clear to wealthy donors behind closed doors that he won’t draw any red lines on Gaza if reelected—as Biden struggles to make clear what his red line is.www.vanityfair.com
“If you get me elected, and you should really be doing this … we’re going to set that movement back 25 or 30 years,” Trump said
You think this is Israel with no restraints?
Dear god.
Because you just said that "Degree of support, etc are either inconsequential and minor, or are purely rhetoric and talking points that do not result in changes to the status quo that is very much needed."
In other words, there is nothing that can be done.
Then you should be EXTREMELY interested in every shift in degree of support, since it has such an important impact.
Humanitarian aid is minor now?
Nothing has tangible impact?
Interesting how the people on the ground there seem to disagree with you so completely.
So therefore no one should be voting between Biden or Trump based on Gaza.
Got it.
On those two specific votes?
No.
Which, if you think those the only two things that have any impact on Gaza, means you shouldn't let Gaza influence your vote between Trump or Biden in any way.
I get it!
You think there is no reason to use the Gaza situation to choose between Trump and Biden!
Anyone doing so is a fool!
You've made your point.
Idiot voters vote their conscience in a plurality system.
That's one of those politically naive myths told to voters so that they don't exercise power efficiently.
It's one of the worst things you can do since it is more likely to actively hurt your cause than help it.
What an amazingly self-defeating way to think about elections.
Oh.
You mean "voting their conscience" to mean "voting to get the best result they can"!
Then you agree with me about voting and we are back to "nothing I do will change this outcome I find important, so I should vote on other criteria".
Again, a strong argument that no one should vote on the Israel/Palestine issue at all.
Because as long as you fail to understand math, I have to point out what is actually going on.
It is true, sorry.
Yes, you've established you don't understand how the system works.
You don't need to dig your hole deeper.
Of course not.
Wait, you think a vote is "an expression of your opinions"?
Oh dear.
Of course the position of candidates sways votes and things sway the voter more than others.
That's the whole point of what we are discussing.
Oh, you REALLY don't understand how the plurality system works at all!
Which between Chow and Bailão did you prefer?
Man, I am going to have to do this "voting systems education series", aren't I?
sigh
Yet you were the one that brought up this language when you claimed it would be 'punishing' Biden to not vote for him just cuz he's aiding a genocide.
Yet you also don't propose any change to the system, are lukewarm at best to protests to change the system and seem to be against pressuring the party to back the progressives and enact change.
Biden losing over support for genocide will be part of long term change, you are focused entirely on the next 4 years.
So minorities, youth and progressives. Even if you won't name them.
Yet the possibility of Biden losing over aiding genocide might pressure him to stop before the election. Netanyahu is done and soon to be just a war criminal facing fraud charges at home. Zionism as a movement is now as loved as the KKK. The genocide continues but is down to starving children and bombing families living in tents as the move from one 'safe zone' to the next. I would wonder if even rump can support it now.
This is about the long game, letting rump win will force change in the dems. This is Biden's last election and watching the AIPAC/Bowman fight is a preview of how that money will look during November.
Zionism as a movement must be ended, the leaders taken to court and the occupation ended. That won't happen ever under Biden. He needs to go.
Your sole argument is that you think rump might be worse for the genocide.
its a genocide, it really can't get much worse.
Long term it may change that policy. In 2028 its a different discussion.
rump couldn't enact a Muslim ban and won't be able to enact this, even if its still going on in Nov.
He's senile and more worried about pardoning himself, a nice piece of chocolate cake and cheating at golf.
You think he'll be worse than this?
This is the result of Islamophobia.
www.ynetnews.com
Jewish American woman charged with attempted murder of Palestinian toddler
Elizabeth Wolf is suspected of attempting to drown a 3-year-old girl in Texas; Mother was able to pull her daughter from the water 'yelling for help and coughing up water'
www.ynetnews.com
Netanyahu wants to start another war since this one is going so badly.
You don't know what you don't know.
You embarrass yourself on a daily basis with a multitude of other posters.
I will let our posts speak for themselves.
Your problem is that your debates with other people say the same thing. You get in over your head.
Degree of support, etc are either inconsequential and minor, or are purely rhetoric and talking points that do not result in changes to the status quo that is very much needed.
Kautilya, the way Valcazar mocks you is so sublime. How can any logical person understand the way your brain works? LOL.
Please keep debating him.
.
And they are not claiming anything. That is what they are actually doing. They did not give their vote to either Trump or Biden. They took 1 vote away from both parties and gave it to someone else whether or not they had any chance of winning.
This was an excellent post.
Kautilya, the way Valcazar mocks you is so sublime. How can any logical person understand the way your brain works? LOL.
Please keep debating him.
