Israel at war

[Klatuu]

So again, I am aware of Isareli racism and injustices towards the Palestinians. The Palestinians are just as racist towards the Israelis. I believe this to be at the core of the issue. Both groups of people do not view the other as humans and are fundamentally racist and intolerant. But lets put that aside for now.

How does this particular attack by Hamas justify kidnapping babies, raping women, mass murdering unsuspecting people etc? How does that accomplish the originally stated goal to release Palestinian prisoners, prevent land thefts, killings, abuse and torture etc?

The other thing you are not addressing is, that the majority of the representatives of Palestine have never resorted to peaceful means in this entire conflict. From day 1, in 1948 till today, the first and only method of fighting for freedom, has been violence, mass murder and terrorism. With some talks and other attempts at peaceful resolution thrown in. Its the same with Israel, but let us only talk about Palestine for now, because bringing Israel in, then becomes an exercise in whataboutism.

It’s about an illegal 50 plus years military occupation, the 75 year plight of millions of Palestinians who are refugees due to the well documented ethnic cleansing. It’s about the ever present apartheid. It’s about the thousand plus Palestinians, including children, held without charge by Israel. It’s about the hundreds of Palestinian children arrested in raids on their homes in the middle of the night. It’s about the Palestinian men who are beaten for dating Jewish women. It’s the Israeli government support for organizations dedicated to destroying the Dome of the Rock.

I’ve barely scratched the surface. No more.

All of this is done by Israelis to Palestinians. No equivalence.

 

[Klatuu]

A non-violent freedom struggle is for several decades. Gandhi started fighting for India's independence in 1915. Independence was accomplished in 1947. It took 32 years.

They signed the Oslo accords. After that there wasn't the Second Intifada and other wars?
They protested peacefully for a year. Thats it?

Non violent struggle means you still die, but you don't attack back.

I am not proposing this out of some moral leaning towards non-violence. I think it is the best political course of action for people in the position of the Palestinians. When you do not have enough military strength to win, you need to play politics cleverly to have moral superiority that you can use for political clout.

So this means you support the Palestinian BDS movement. Just like Gandhi…a boycott. Started by a Palestinian Gandhi…Omar Barghouti. Israel won’t let him leave the country.
And here you are saying the Palestinians only used violence. Educate yourself.

 

[Klatuu]

Very caring of Hamas to ask their people to stay and become human shields so they can hide behind them. Unless and until these terrorists are rooted out, nothing good will ever happen to Palestine.

Unless you think Israel is exempt from international law, this should be settled for you.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1712927231176311093

 

[Leimonis]

It’s about an illegal 50 plus years military occupation, the 75 year plight of millions of Palestinians who are refugees due to the well documented ethnic cleansing. It’s about the ever present apartheid. It’s about the thousand plus Palestinians, including children, held without charge by Israel. It’s about the hundreds of Palestinian children arrested in raids on their homes in the middle of the night. It’s about the Palestinian men who are beaten for dating Jewish women. It’s the Israeli government support for organizations dedicated to destroying the Dome of the Rock.

I’ve barely scratched the surface. No more.

All of this is done by Israelis to Palestinians. No equivalence.

meanwhile millions of arabs live in israel with israeli passports and are having a good life and don't give a shit about ethnic cleansing or apartheid and they don't even have to serve in the army

 

[shack]

After this already happened.
Which means the next bombings will be much worse.

2.2 million people.
50% are children.
75% are refugees

And Hamas doesn't care about them other than to use as shields.

 

[Frankfooter]

meanwhile millions of arabs live in israel with israeli passports and are having a good life and don't give a shit about ethnic cleansing or apartheid and they don't even have to serve in the army

So you're arguing that if you give them equal rights and liberty the fighting will stop?

 

[Frankfooter]

And Hamas doesn't care about them other than to use as shields.

2.2 million people live in a prison camp.
There is nowhere to go, they aren't human shields, they are prisoners.

You do also know, of course, that when the UN investigated they did find lots of evidence of human shields

Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.

A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields.

www.reuters.com

 

[Frankfooter]

Yes, but you seem to be arguing the violence is only one way. From the Israelis.

What is with you and supporting terrorists?

No, I keep arguing for a ceasefire and an end to apartheid.
Stating that Palestinians have the right to self defence isn't arguing they should fight, just that they have that right.
But my argument has always been end apartheid and and the violence will stop.

Like leimonis just argued, give them equal rights and they'll live peacefully.

meanwhile millions of arabs live in israel with israeli passports and are having a good life and don't give a shit about ethnic cleansing or apartheid and they don't even have to serve in the army

 

[Klatuu]

meanwhile millions of arabs live in israel with israeli passports and are having a good life and don't give a shit about ethnic cleansing or apartheid and they don't even have to serve in the army

That’s just the brainwashing you’ve been given your whole life. They feel very different. Ask any of their elected representatives.

 

[Klatuu]

Between the violence and the non-violent struggle, which has been more prominent over the last 75 years? When did the BDS movement start? Wiki says 2005. So not even that long.

And no non-violent struggle is smooth sailing. Gandhi was jailed multiple times.

The problem with these arguments is that it is not enough to say, "Oh we had that too". It needs to be intense, organized, sustained, grassroots, and massive. The only movement that has all those characteristics in Palestine has been the one of violence.

It is organized and sustained. It’s grassroots and global.

So, do you whole heartedly support BDS?

 

[Frankfooter]

What Hamas did is not self defence.

Why is it self defence when Ukraine fights the Russian occupation but not self defence when Hamas fights the Israeli occupation?

 

[Leimonis]

So you're arguing that if you give them equal rights and liberty the fighting will stop?

If they could be trusted with equal rights and liberty they would be. They have been indoctrinated and paid to fight israel and that would not stop

 

[Frankfooter]

And Hamas doesn't care about them other than to use as shields.

How do you use human shields when this happens, shack?

 

[Klatuu]

Am sure it does. Am sure attacking a concert full of people, or a village full of people and mass murdering them also is in contravention of international law.

I‘m sorry….i detect a lot of equivocation here with your whataboutism. Do you agree that the Israeli order is a violation of international law and that they should abide by international law?

 

[Robert Mugabe]

Been away for a few hours. Lots of reading to catch up on. Here's where I am. Hamas decided to go all rapey and tortury and butchery on Saturday. After having an enjoyable day slaughtering women. children. families. Laughing and yelling Alawa Akbar. As they like to do. They took a bunch of young girls and children and such back home to continue the rapey tortury celebration. When the Israelis finally cottoned on to what had just happened, they started bombing the gangster crib. Palestinians are quite rightly claiming hurt and injustice because the average Palestinian just wants to live, work, eat and breed like everybody else.Not take the shit storm being rained down on them because of something they didn't do. Although if the truth be known, a lot of them were quite approving of. Seing it's always Israel's fault. Problem is the elephant in the room which won't leave.

 

[Frankfooter]

If they could be trusted with equal rights and liberty they would be. They have been indoctrinated and paid to fight israel and that would not stop

You just said they can be trusted and that it works within the 1967 borders.
End the apartheid and blockade and let them live their lives.

Here, why don't you listen to the words of a prof at the Al Aqsa University in Gaza.

https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/AP23284637421848-1-1697090360.jpg?resize=1170%2C780&quality=80

It is Gaza again! But it is different this time! Instead of reacting to one of apartheid Israel’s regular genocidal attacks, the resistance movements have taken the “first” step in an unprecedented move.

Instead of waiting for Israel’s “generosity” when it decides, through mediators, to open one of the seven gates of the largest open-air prisons on earth, the inmates – having learned from the Warsaw Uprising of 1944 – decided to bring it down themselves.

The deadly medieval siege that has been imposed on Gaza since 2007 – supported by the European Union and the United States – along with recurrent genocidal wars launched by Israel are an attempt to make the Palestinians of Gaza disappear – albeit slowly and painfully.

No more! Enough is enough.

The resistance movements in Gaza, right and left, have decided to turn the table upside down. They have given the Palestinian struggle a new impetus, a clear direction towards liberation and decolonisation.

To understand the events of today, it is important to remember the context of the Palestinian struggle of the past 30 years. The decision by the leadership of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO) to do what used to be unthinkable – coexist with Zionism – led to the disastrous Oslo Accords which, in effect, truncated Palestinian history.

The Naksa – the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, Gaza the Golan Heights and the Sinai desert in 1967 became separate from the Nakba – the mass expulsion of Palestinians from their homeland in 1948.

The focus became the occupation and not the settler colonialism that stood behind it, while “peace negotiations” served as a cover for Israeli violence and the continued dispossession of the Palestinians.

As Israeli historian Ilan Pappe maintains in his book The Biggest Prison on Earth: “Israeli strategists discovered that if you want to implement ethnic cleansing by other means, the alternative to expulsion is not to allow people to leave the place where they live – and thus they can be excluded from the democratic balance of power. They are contained inside their own areas, but do not have to be counted in the overall national demographics since they cannot freely move, develop or expand, nor do they have any basic civil and human rights.”

Apartheid Israel has made it absolutely clear that since it cannot get rid of us completely, we must become its slaves, people without any rights.

The majority of Israeli Jews support the genocidal policy of their governments because, as Zionists living in apartheid Israel, they are indoctrinated into believing that they are entitled to certain privileges that must be denied to the indigenous population of the land.

In 1948, to implement this racist ideology, ethnic cleansing was the solution. And in 1967, enslavement became the only option.

In the face of this reality, Palestinians have reached common ground on the enemy being settler colonialism, but they have failed to agree on how decolonisation should be understood and achieved.

In recent years, there has been a radical shift in the strategic thinking on this point, one that looks at Israeli-Palestinian relations within the framework of settler colonialism and apartheid.

True liberation within this context means achieving true equality in historic Palestine after the return of all Palestinian refugees to the towns and villages from which they were ethnically cleansed in 1948.

A vision of liberation
No wonder Gaza has decided to take this unprecedented move. Two-thirds of Gazans are refugees entitled to their right of return in accordance with United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 of 1948.

It is rumoured that the resistance fighters who managed to enter Sderot are the grandsons of refugees from the village of Huj, which was ethnically cleansed by Zionist militias in 1948 and renamed Sderot. Others are from the village of Hirbya, renamed Zikim by the Israelis.

They have dared to do the “unthinkable,” i.e., return, not as visitors granted permission by the coloniser but as liberators upholding their right to their ancestral land.

This radical act of return points to the post-Zionist future we should envision that will bring liberation to all.
Liberation for us means dismantling the structures of Zionist settler colonialism and apartheid and addressing the inequalities and injustices it has inflicted on us, the indigenous population of Palestine, over the past 100 years.

Liberation for us aims to transform the relationship between Palestinians and Israelis into one based on total equality and justice. The settler society is expected to abandon all colonial privileges and display real willingness to accept responsibility for past crimes and injustices. The compromise that indigenous Palestinians are expected to offer is to accept settlers as equal citizens in the new state between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.

This is the path to peace and security, and the international community, which has long accepted Israel’s war crimes against the Palestinians and has even been complicit in them, will have to embrace it.

Having learned nothing from history, US President Joe Biden made it clear the day Palestinian fighters crossed through the barbed wire to Israel that he is fully behind Israel, giving its army the green light to commit more war crimes against the civilians of Gaza.

Three days after the start of the resistance inside 1948 Palestine, Israel has killed more than 770 people in Gaza, including 140 children, and injured 4,000. More than 180,000 people have had to flee their homes as their neighbourhoods have been viciously targetted by Israeli war planes; I am one of them.

Leaders like Biden would do well to remember Brazilian educator and philosopher Paulo Freire’s words: “With the establishment of a relationship of oppression, violence has already begun. Never in history has violence been initiated by the oppressed. How could they be the initiators, if they themselves are the result of violence? … There would be no oppressed had there been no prior situation of violence to establish their subjugation. Violence is initiated by those who oppress, who exploit, who fail to recognize others as people – not by those who are oppressed, exploited, and unrecognized.”

In Gaza and Jenin, we refuse to march to Israel’s death chambers like sheep. In Gaza and Jenin – in fact, in all of historic Palestine – we have made it absolutely clear that we will resist the settler, colonial, apartheid regime between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean.
And we expect the international community to support our struggle for justice and freedom in exactly the same way as it has supported the Ukrainian resistance against the Russian invasion.

The double standards we have seen have convinced us that it is our duty as Palestinians to create the political space for our liberation where none has been afforded to us.

We cannot compromise on our basic rights, including the right to self-determination and the right of return. We have a clear path towards liberation that strays away from the facade of talking independence and camouflaged racist solutions.

 

[Frankfooter]

Been away for a few hours. Lots of reading to catch up on. Here's where I am. Hamas decided to go all rapey and tortury and butchery on Saturday. After having an enjoyable day slaughtering women. children. families. Laughing and yelling Alawa Akbar. As they like to do. They took a bunch of young girls and children and such back home to continue the rapey tortury celebration. When the Israelis finally cottoned on to what had just happened, they started bombing the gangster crib. Palestinians are quite rightly claiming hurt and injustice because the average Palestinian just wants to live, work, eat and breed like everybody else.Not take the shit storm being rained down on them because of something they didn't do. Although if the truth be known, were quite approving of. Seing it's always Israel's fault. Problem is the elephant in the room which won't leave.

Watching the watchdogs: Babies and truth die together in Israel-Palestine
The Israel-Palestine conflict is being fought not only between militaries and fighters on the ground, but also between media narratives on the air.

 

[Robert Mugabe]

Watching the watchdogs: Babies and truth die together in Israel-Palestine
The Israel-Palestine conflict is being fought not only between militaries and fighters on the ground, but also between media narratives on the air.

So true. Except this time it's Israeli babies.

 

[Leimonis]

You just said they can be trusted and that it works within the 1967 borders.
End the apartheid and blockade and let them live their lives.

Here, why don't you listen to the words of a prof at the Al Aqsa University in Gaza.

https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/AP23284637421848-1-1697090360.jpg?resize=1170%2C780&quality=80

It is Gaza again! But it is different this time! Instead of reacting to one of apartheid Israel’s regular genocidal attacks, the resistance movements have taken the “first” step in an unprecedented move.

Instead of waiting for Israel’s “generosity” when it decides, through mediators, to open one of the seven gates of the largest open-air prisons on earth, the inmates – having learned from the Warsaw Uprising of 1944 – decided to bring it down themselves.

The deadly medieval siege that has been imposed on Gaza since 2007 – supported by the European Union and the United States – along with recurrent genocidal wars launched by Israel are an attempt to make the Palestinians of Gaza disappear – albeit slowly and painfully.

No more! Enough is enough.

The resistance movements in Gaza, right and left, have decided to turn the table upside down. They have given the Palestinian struggle a new impetus, a clear direction towards liberation and decolonisation.

To understand the events of today, it is important to remember the context of the Palestinian struggle of the past 30 years. The decision by the leadership of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO) to do what used to be unthinkable – coexist with Zionism – led to the disastrous Oslo Accords which, in effect, truncated Palestinian history.

The Naksa – the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, Gaza the Golan Heights and the Sinai desert in 1967 became separate from the Nakba – the mass expulsion of Palestinians from their homeland in 1948.

The focus became the occupation and not the settler colonialism that stood behind it, while “peace negotiations” served as a cover for Israeli violence and the continued dispossession of the Palestinians.

As Israeli historian Ilan Pappe maintains in his book The Biggest Prison on Earth: “Israeli strategists discovered that if you want to implement ethnic cleansing by other means, the alternative to expulsion is not to allow people to leave the place where they live – and thus they can be excluded from the democratic balance of power. They are contained inside their own areas, but do not have to be counted in the overall national demographics since they cannot freely move, develop or expand, nor do they have any basic civil and human rights.”

Apartheid Israel has made it absolutely clear that since it cannot get rid of us completely, we must become its slaves, people without any rights.

The majority of Israeli Jews support the genocidal policy of their governments because, as Zionists living in apartheid Israel, they are indoctrinated into believing that they are entitled to certain privileges that must be denied to the indigenous population of the land.

In 1948, to implement this racist ideology, ethnic cleansing was the solution. And in 1967, enslavement became the only option.

In the face of this reality, Palestinians have reached common ground on the enemy being settler colonialism, but they have failed to agree on how decolonisation should be understood and achieved.

In recent years, there has been a radical shift in the strategic thinking on this point, one that looks at Israeli-Palestinian relations within the framework of settler colonialism and apartheid.

True liberation within this context means achieving true equality in historic Palestine after the return of all Palestinian refugees to the towns and villages from which they were ethnically cleansed in 1948.

A vision of liberation
No wonder Gaza has decided to take this unprecedented move. Two-thirds of Gazans are refugees entitled to their right of return in accordance with United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 of 1948.

It is rumoured that the resistance fighters who managed to enter Sderot are the grandsons of refugees from the village of Huj, which was ethnically cleansed by Zionist militias in 1948 and renamed Sderot. Others are from the village of Hirbya, renamed Zikim by the Israelis.

They have dared to do the “unthinkable,” i.e., return, not as visitors granted permission by the coloniser but as liberators upholding their right to their ancestral land.

This radical act of return points to the post-Zionist future we should envision that will bring liberation to all.
Liberation for us means dismantling the structures of Zionist settler colonialism and apartheid and addressing the inequalities and injustices it has inflicted on us, the indigenous population of Palestine, over the past 100 years.

Liberation for us aims to transform the relationship between Palestinians and Israelis into one based on total equality and justice. The settler society is expected to abandon all colonial privileges and display real willingness to accept responsibility for past crimes and injustices. The compromise that indigenous Palestinians are expected to offer is to accept settlers as equal citizens in the new state between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.

This is the path to peace and security, and the international community, which has long accepted Israel’s war crimes against the Palestinians and has even been complicit in them, will have to embrace it.

Having learned nothing from history, US President Joe Biden made it clear the day Palestinian fighters crossed through the barbed wire to Israel that he is fully behind Israel, giving its army the green light to commit more war crimes against the civilians of Gaza.

Three days after the start of the resistance inside 1948 Palestine, Israel has killed more than 770 people in Gaza, including 140 children, and injured 4,000. More than 180,000 people have had to flee their homes as their neighbourhoods have been viciously targetted by Israeli war planes; I am one of them.

Leaders like Biden would do well to remember Brazilian educator and philosopher Paulo Freire’s words: “With the establishment of a relationship of oppression, violence has already begun. Never in history has violence been initiated by the oppressed. How could they be the initiators, if they themselves are the result of violence? … There would be no oppressed had there been no prior situation of violence to establish their subjugation. Violence is initiated by those who oppress, who exploit, who fail to recognize others as people – not by those who are oppressed, exploited, and unrecognized.”

In Gaza and Jenin, we refuse to march to Israel’s death chambers like sheep. In Gaza and Jenin – in fact, in all of historic Palestine – we have made it absolutely clear that we will resist the settler, colonial, apartheid regime between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean.
And we expect the international community to support our struggle for justice and freedom in exactly the same way as it has supported the Ukrainian resistance against the Russian invasion.

The double standards we have seen have convinced us that it is our duty as Palestinians to create the political space for our liberation where none has been afforded to us.

We cannot compromise on our basic rights, including the right to self-determination and the right of return. We have a clear path towards liberation that strays away from the facade of talking independence and camouflaged racist solutions.

I wonder why Ukrainian refugees are accepted everywhere but Gazans are not welcome in any Arab country

 

[Frankfooter]

I wonder why Ukrainian refugees are accepted everywhere but Gazans are not welcome in any Arab country

Cuz there are already 5 million living in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan.
They've been there for 75 years and Israel refuses to let them back in.
While anyone who claims to be Jewish or have a Jewish friend gets free transport.

Egypt won't let them in because they know Israel wants a repeat of the Nabka, once they are out Israel will never let them back in.
Ethnic cleansing, you know.