Israel at war

[K Douglas]

My error, yes the 1988 charter is bad. I meant the updated charter which I thought was the 1988 charter. Its not, its this one from 2017:

Hamas in 2017: The document in full

Hamas explains general principles and objectives in 42-article document

www.middleeasteye.net

In it they clearly state that if a Palestinian majority supported it, they would back the two state solution based on the 1967 borders.

Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.

In other words Hamas does not agree to a sovereign Jewish state because they only support full right of return and the 1967 borders. No concession whatsoever.
The peace process will never progress unless Hamas is removed from the equation.

 

[Klatuu]

Bullshit.

You are using the anti-Semite's defense. As long as we kill some Jews/Israelis we don't care what happens to Gazans. The killing of Jews justifies any fallout on any scale.

You are saying that you and Hamas knew that Israel would retaliate very vigorously and you knew that the people of Gaza would suffer greatly as a result. But since you approved of the aggression against Israel, it means you don't give a damn what happens to Gazans. They are pawns. Sheep to be sacrificed.

You lie when you say you care about their welfare. You are simply using them for propaganda.

That's the anti-Semite's defense.

Exposed again.

No. That’s your brainwashed anti Palestinian racism.

 

[richaceg]

The wife beater's defence. They had it coming. They made me do it. They got angry and I couldn't control myself. They deserved it, they wanted to be hit.

You really think Israel owes any explanation for the retailation?
Gazans have suffered long enough at the hands of Hamas....what has Hamas done for the residents for Gazans other than make them human shields whenever it's convenient.... When you take your violence to the next level and parade corpses as prize...you know you punctuated death sentence to your own people....Israel will throw some biblical type retaliation from here on out...
If I may ask you, What would've been the best action for Israel after that attack?
- Let UN deal with it?
-Let every country condemn Hamas?
-Surrender all weapons and give Palestine what they want? (which is eliminate Israel on the map)

 

[Klatuu]

This entire thread man....

I am a Liberal Jew that despises Bibi and the ultra right, but I am seething in sadness & anger over this. I'm pissed at a UN that fights it's own guilt at creating Israel by allowing the Muslim world to drag Israel into the UN conversation while the rest of the world burns...I was supportive of Rabin and Barak's attempts to create a 2 state system before Fatah torched it all in the name of hating Jews.

It's beyond the pale to expect Israel, reeling from basically *12* 9/11s here (per capita Israel population in 2023 v US population in 2001) to be expected to 'show restraint.' They're finding babies and kids executed ISIS-style - the elderly and little kids FFS. It represented the absolute worst humanity has to offer, and many moderates like me aren't feeling too moderate ATM. Hamas knew with Bibi alone what a warmonger he was and is, and still executed their plans, knowing it meant thousands on both sides would die. So forgive me if I have little sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian stuck in Gaza today or tomorrow. They won't be able to play the victim card here either this time, not after what they did.

More brainwashed drivel. Are you spoon fed these myths from birth?

 

[bggolfingmaniac]

More brainwashed drivel. Are you spoon fed these myths from birth?

I forgot how much I miss message boards.

 

[shack]

No. That’s your brainwashed anti Palestinian racism.

More waste of bandwidth from you. Not worthy of a direct reply.

 

[mitchell76]

 

[WyattEarp]

Maybe, instead of building tunnels, buying munitions etc. with all the international aid that Gaza has received over many years, they used that money to work on their own infrastructure they wouldn't have needed to allow Israel to be in control of their utilities.

There's a reason that countries that have been decimated by war have risen from the ashes and been rebuilt into strong economies. This is not lost on anyone.

Hamas simply wants and needs to be in a perpetual state of war and conflict.

Think about how much money they have been given over the years. Think about how much money Palestine would be given if they chose to focus on education and economic development.

"They shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

 

[Frankfooter]

This is the "endgame" you wanted...at the cost of Palestinian lives....like Hamas, Palestinian lives are merely collateral damage....as long as Israel is gone...
Here's your words "send Israel & Hamas to the Hague"....that's you... You deem whole of Israel are terrorists like Hamas.... that's you.... @wigglee @Klatuu @Jubee ...do you support Franky's statements here? just want to know....

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1712064777575350634

 

[Frankfooter]

Your arguments here to cease fire are similar to right wing arguments to cease fire in Ukraine.

Nope.
Russia invaded Ukraine and occupied 1/4 of Ukraine in the last year. Calling for a ceasefire is giving Russia that land.
Israel erased Palestine from the map decades ago. Calling for a ceasefire won't change that, it will just stop the killing. Then you can campaign for equal rights and the end of aparhteid.

 

[richaceg]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1712064777575350634

Palestinians voted Hamas, I bet the selling point there was eradicate Israel for one Palestinian state....when it was time for another election, Hamas didn't want one....and here we are....

 

[Frankfooter]

This entire thread man....

I am a Liberal Jew that despises Bibi and the ultra right, but I am seething in sadness & anger over this. I'm pissed at a UN that fights it's own guilt at creating Israel by allowing the Muslim world to drag Israel into the UN conversation while the rest of the world burns...I was supportive of Rabin and Barak's attempts to create a 2 state system before Fatah torched it all in the name of hating Jews.

It's beyond the pale to expect Israel, reeling from basically *12* 9/11s here (per capita Israel population in 2023 v US population in 2001) to be expected to 'show restraint.' They're finding babies and kids executed ISIS-style - the elderly and little kids FFS. It represented the absolute worst humanity has to offer, and many moderates like me aren't feeling too moderate ATM. Hamas knew with Bibi alone what a warmonger he was and is, and still executed their plans, knowing it meant thousands on both sides would die. So forgive me if I have little sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian stuck in Gaza today or tomorrow. They won't be able to play the victim card here either this time, not after what they did.

Before this attack Israel had already killed 200 Palestinians this year. Why would you think Palestinians wouldn't respond?
How long do you expect them to keep living under apartheid in a shrinking land area?

More than 200 Palestinians, nearly 30 Israelis killed so far this year: UN

UN Middle East envoy Tor Wennesland says deaths from violence so far this year are the highest recorded since 2005.

www.aljazeera.com

The answer is not violence.
Its the end of apartheid.

 

[richaceg]

Before this attack Israel had already killed 200 Palestinians this year. Why would you think Palestinians wouldn't respond?
How long do you expect them to keep living under apartheid in a shrinking land area?

More than 200 Palestinians, nearly 30 Israelis killed so far this year: UN

UN Middle East envoy Tor Wennesland says deaths from violence so far this year are the highest recorded since 2005.

www.aljazeera.com

The answer is not violence.
Its the end of apartheid.

There was no apartheid....but keep going...stop magnifying deaths of palestinians...Hamas is the bringer of deaths for both Palestine and Israel...that's the organization you support...you defend...I don't know why....they are not what's best for palestinians....as we are witnessing now...

 

[Frankfooter]

Bullshit.

You are using the anti-Semite's defense. As long as we kill some Jews/Israelis we don't care what happens to Gazans. The killing of Jews justifies any fallout on any scale.

You are saying that you and Hamas knew that Israel would retaliate very vigorously and you knew that the people of Gaza would suffer greatly as a result. But since you approved of the aggression against Israel, it means you don't give a damn what happens to Gazans. They are pawns. Sheep to be sacrificed.

You lie when you say you care about their welfare. You are simply using them for propaganda.

That's the anti-Semite's defense.

Exposed again.

Its sad when calling for equal rights and an end to violence makes the racists shout 'antisemite'.
In Israel you can have an open debate but here in Canada the racist settler colonialists won't allow it.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1712446666442195111

 

[Frankfooter]

Is that from the Hamas Manifesto?

Likud Charter.
Its the same.

 

[Frankfooter]

There was no apartheid....but keep going...stop magnifying deaths of palestinians...Hamas is the bringer of deaths for both Palestine and Israel...that's the organization you support...you defend...I don't know why....they are not what's best for palestinians....as we are witnessing now...

Rich, you're a terrorist sympathizer who refuses to call out terrorist attacks by Israel.
Now you're defending apartheid as well.

If you want peace you need to call out war crimes by both sides.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1711734414441345256

 

[Frankfooter]

Klatuu, apologies for asking, but are you a person of Palestinian origin?

Regardless, you cannot possibly call people brainwashed after a massacre like this? After all it happened in broad daylight and isn't a secret.

But this massacre is fine?

 

[xmontrealer]

More brainwashed drivel. Are you spoon fed these myths from birth?

Klatuu, all you bring to these "discussions" are personal attacks and insults to the posters with whom you disagree, and their imagined families.

You contribute nothing of value. Even Frankfooter, with whom I often disagree, is above that, and does make valid points in many of his posts.

So I, for one, am putting you on "ignore".

 

[Frankfooter]

What about neutralizing terrorists?

So the Hamas would just waltz in and kill and massacre people, and you expect Israel to pat them on the back and say "It's alright buddy, lets talk. What do you need?"

Why is your only solution killing more people?

 

[richaceg]

Rich, you're a terrorist sympathizer who refuses to call out terrorist attacks by Israel.
Now you're defending apartheid as well.

If you want peace you need to call out war crimes by both sides.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1711734414441345256

An investigation doesn't mean it's absolute...we can keep going here..there's one terrorist group worth mentioning...and you won't even do it...