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Israel at war

shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
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I think a ceasefire and negotiation via Qatar will work.
Quite possible.

But how many more Gazans/Palestinians are you willing to see die going through this process until you realize that Hamas surrendering and releasing the hostages is the fastest way to end this Oct. 7 war? 1,000? 2,000? 10,000?

I recall you saying that the welfare of the Palestinians is the main focus. How is allowing more to die making their welfare the main focus?

Hamas surrendering, releasing the hostages and then negotiating would be the way the put their welfare first.

As pointed out before, the ceasefire needs to be negotiated first. That takes time.
 

xmontrealer

Well-known member
May 23, 2005
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Well, it’s true that too often guys think with the small head. If as is evident in this thread some think that stuff people way more qualified than them have tried, that everything that can realistically has been tried be that ceasefires or Mosad taking out leaders strategically etc hasn’t in this 1000 year conflict or just have to prove who knows what about crimes..

which head are people using?
Just like when I used to watch Judge Judy on TV, no matter what Judge Judy's decision was, in almost every case neither the plaintiffs nor the defendants, during their post-trial interviews, seemed to be persuaded that their original positions were wrong.

The same is evident in this thread. But it is interesting, and perhaps even enlightening and educational for those willing to listen to both sides of the issue, to hear all reasonable points of view and express our individual opinions.

I agree though, that I have no confidence there is any ultimately peaceful solution to the Palestine/Israel conflict, and certainly none will arise from this thread. Nonetheless I will continue to participate as long as I feel I am learning from it, and can perhaps contribute something of value to the discussion.
 
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whynot888

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The point is that everything you guys claim is a huuuge overstatement/overly dramatic. You can't just describe things accurately. That was not carpet bombing. Just as there is no apartheid and there is no attempt at ethnic cleansing.

The only time that you guys don't dramatize is when you just outright lie.
Dude just keeps repeating the same shit over and over whining like a baby wtf, he exaggerates more than my fucking wife.
 

lomotil

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Mar 14, 2004
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Oblivion
The rockets fired from Gaza into Israel are now just a trickle and soon will be no longer.

A two state solution was a unicorn even before 1947 .

As of October 7, 2023, the unicorn remains, now even more so.
 

Not getting younger

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Jun 29, 2022
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Just like when I used to watch Judge Judy on TV, no matter what Judge Judy's decision was, in almost every case neither the plaintiffs nor the defendants, during their post-trial interviews, seemed to be persuaded that their original positions were wrong.

The same is evident in this thread. But it is interesting, and perhaps even enlightening and educational for those willing to listen to both sides of the issue, to hear all reasonable points of view and express our individual opinions.

I agree though, that I have no confidence there is any ultimately peaceful solution to the Palestine/Israel conflict, and certainly none will arise from this thread. Nonetheless I will continue to participate as long as I feel I am learning from it, and can perhaps contribute something of value to the discussion.
Fair enough, approach things much the same way. However one month in, how many of the 300 pages, and just the same things being said over and over and over.

Anything new at all in the last 3 weeks or 250 pages?
 

Addict2sex

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Jan 29, 2017
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You're Paying For The Israel War. You'll Also Pay For The Refugees.

SATURDAY, NOV 18, 2023 - 09:35 PM
Authored by Ryan McMaken via the Mises Institute,






The United States regime has picked sides in the Israel-Hamas war and has committed to funding Israel's ongoing bombing of non-combatant men, women, and children in the Gaza strip. Northern Gaza's infrastructure is now all but destroyed, with millions of Gazans displaced and homeless. Nearly ten times more Gazans than Israelis have now died in the conflict. Many Gazans have fled to the southern portion of Gaza, but homelessness and abject poverty awaits them there.
By employing what is essentially the carpet-bombing approach, Tel Aviv has made the choice of adopting a policy that is sure to produce hundreds of thousands of refugees—or perhaps even more than a million. Indeed, many in the Israeli regime are motivated to maximize refugees, and push Gazans out of the country altogether using the Orwellian phrase "voluntary migration."
On a military, tactical level, the Israeli state will have no problem accomplishing this. Tel Aviv has an air force, a deep reservoir of American-funded weapons, and a nuclear arsenal. The Israeli military can easily reduce all of Gaza to rubble. But what is sure to result from this is a humanitarian disaster accompanied by a global debate over which foreign country will host the refugees.
Israeli mouthpieces are already at work pushing the cost onto foreign taxpayers, including American ones. This week, two Israeli politicians—one from the militarist Likud party, and one from the center-left Yesh Atid party—took to the pages of The Wall Street Journal to demand that "countries around the world should offer a haven for Gaza residents who seek relocation." According to these politicians, "[t]he international community"—i.e., not Israel—"has a moral imperative" to resettle Gazans somewhere outside Israel at not-Israel's expense.
It is significant these claims appeared in an American publication. Tel Aviv is the latest welfare-queen regime—in the tradition of Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelensky—repeatedly haranguing the American public with demands for free money. It's no coincidence that Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu is now seemingly ubiquitous on American prime-time news programs. His primary job right now is to demand money and favors from Washington and from other Western regimes.
It will probably work. Americans should get ready for plane-loads of Gaza refugees arriving in their cities, funded by the American taxpayers who can now barely afford to keep up with the price of groceries. This will be sold as a "humanitarian" effort, but anyone who sees through the propaganda will see that it's really all a cynical effort to please pro-Israel interest groups and Israeli politicians.
A Pattern of War and Refugees
This was all predictable from the minute the war started last month.
The US and its allies have settled into a predictable pattern in foreign policy over the past thirty years: force the taxpayers to pay for the regime's wars which involve bombing various poor foreign countries "back into the stone age." Then, once the refugees start pouring out—and the Americans have lost the war, of course—Western regimes then tell the taxpayers back home to cough up even more money to pay for resettlement of all those refugees whose countries were needlessly destroyed by the bombs dropped by Washington and its allies.
This is no small phenomenon. A 2020 report from Brown University estimated that 37 million people have been made refugees by the US-led "War on Terrorism." By 2016, 5.2 million of them reached Europe. In 2022 alone, more than 159,000 refugees arrived by sea in Italy, Greece, Spain, Cyprus, and Malta. Thousands more arrive at the land borders of the EU every year.
Thanks to the distance from western Asia and North Africa, refugees totals have been smaller in the United States. Nonetheless, the total number of refugees has ranged from 50,000 to 90,000 per year in most years since the US began its war in Afghanistan. This has transformed a number of communities in the United States, however, since refugees often tend to concentrate in specific places along ethnic or religious lines. In the decades of the US's endless on-again, off-again military meddling in Somalia, tens of thousands of Somali refugees have been relocated to Minnesota at taxpayers' expense. Since 2018, Minnesota has hosted more than 40,000 Somalia-born migrants (many classified as refugees). Most of the refugees, of course, are concentrated within Minneapolis' metro population of only 3.5 million. In democracies, this has political consequences.
It is also important to remember that migrants who enjoy the legal status of refugees are not normal immigrants. Ordinary immigrants arrive at the United States at their own expense. The vast majority must find work on their own if they wish to have an income. They are eligible for few social benefits. Those seeking legal residency, of course, must go through a lengthy administrative process. For example, Mexicans who obtain a work visa in the United States have to work. They don't show up and receive "free" help from government-funded refugee agencies in finding jobs, apartments, and other government freebies.
In contrast, all of that is fast-tracked for people labeled "refugee" by the federal government, and most of these refugees are immediately eligible for a wide array of taxpayer funded benefits. In total, this all costs the taxpayers nearly two billion dollars per year, or $80,000 per refugee per year in the form of federal and state programs including food stamps, child care, and public housing.
It's not enough that you pay for the bombs that create the refugees, dear American taxpayer. You'll also have to pay to resettle those refugees in your town.
 
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shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
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I know you have a habit of dishonestly misstating words. And this is Example #4 of you lying.

I will repeat. Israel should unconditionally cease fire for humanitarian reasons. And then negotiate for hostage release with Hamas via Qatar.
I have lied about nothing. My point, which you have not refuted, because it is impossible to so and cannot even bring yourself to admit, is that Hamas surrendering and releasing the hostages is the fastest way to prevent Gazans/Palestinians from suffering under Israel's retaliation. Is it somehow shameful to admit that I'm correct. I don't understand. Maybe it is because I don't have any firsthand knowledge of how it is to live with so much hatred as you do.

A combination of Israel following international law, ceasing fire unconditionally for humanitarian purposes and negotiating for hostage release, will be the quickest way of saving Palestinian lives.
I have proven that 100% wrong. Surrender by Hamas is the fastest. I didn't say that it would necessarily happen, but it is clearly the fastest. Again, why is that so monumentally difficult to agree with?

You also did not answer my question: If you agree, that Hamas is not trustworthy, then why would you ask them to surrender?
For the sake of the Palestinians, what else. Why do you even have to ask?

And if you are infact asking Hamas to surrender, then it must mean, you actually do trust them, and there is no reason for you to doubt what they say. So which is it?
A surrender in which they give up their weapons, allow themselves to be arrested and release the hostages doesn't really require any trust. What do you think surrender means? D'uuhh. Trusting them to uphold a negotiated treaty is a different matter. That's why a surrender is required. And if Israel were to negotiate after a ceasefire, as you recommend, why are YOU trusting them?

As usual, your talking points are all shown to be hate driven, hypocritical drivel. They never stands up to scrutiny as shown in this post. You can only tell so many lies until the fallacies, inconsistencies and hypocrisies are revealed. The hate boils to the top for everyone to see.

Between Klatuu, franK and you, Kautilya, you are TERB's KKK.

You are just as reprehensible and racist as they were/are.
 
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The Oracle

Pronouns: Who/Cares
Mar 8, 2004
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On the slopes of Mount Parnassus, Greece

Yep they have all the buzz words in there, lol

But since I'm all for free speech I say let it ride...At the very least we'll know who's thinking what.
 
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Leimonis

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My condolences about your family.

Personally, I think Israel is going to do a pretty thorough job on HAMAS. Those HAMAS leaders will be assassinated in Turkey and Yemen, just like the US got ObL. And we'll see what the IDF will do to HAMAS in Gaza.
Without a doubt this is high on their agenda and mossad and shin bet are gonna go above and beyond
 

Addict2sex

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Jan 29, 2017
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ASU Pulls Plug On Tlaib's Speech In Wake Of House Censure

SATURDAY, NOV 18, 2023 - 07:15 PM

In the wake of her bipartisan censure



by the U.S. House of Representatives for saying that the Biden administration 'supports genocide' in Gaza, a planned speech by Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-MI) was canceled by Arizona State University (ASU).





The censure, introduced by Rep. Rich McCormick (R-GA), accused Tlaib of promoting false narratives about Hamas' attacks on Israel and calling for the destruction of the state of Israel. Notably, 22 Democrats joined the majority of Republicans, while four Republicans voted against it on free speech grounds.

While ASU didn't point to the censure, the timing couldn't be more obvious. Instead, the university on Friday told The Center Square (via Just the News) that her speech wouldn't happen on school grounds because the group organizing the event failed to adhere to proper protocols.

"Organizers of events using ASU facilities must be properly registered with ASU and must meet all university requirements for crowd management, parking, security, and insurance," said a spokesperson. "In addition, the events must be produced in a way which minimizes disruption to academic and other activities on campus. The event featuring Congresswoman Tlaib was planned and produced by groups not affiliated with ASU and was organized outside of ASU policies and procedures."

Tlaib, the first Palestinian American woman in Congress, has been a vocal critic of the Israeli government. The clip which got her in hot water shows pro-Palestine protesters chanting "from the river to the sea" - a refrain which Tlaib described as "an aspirational call for freedom, human rights, and peaceful coexistence, not death, destruction, or hate."

Tlaib defended her position on the House floor, stating that her criticism was solely directed at the Israeli government and arguing that labeling such criticism as antisemitic sets a dangerous precedent.



The canceled ASU event was planned by groups opposing Israel's military actions against Hamas and was expected to address issues pertinent to the Palestinian perspective.

In response to the university's decision, Students for Justice in Palestine at ASU, one of the event's sponsors, criticized the university for stifling free speech and Palestinian voices on campus. The cancellation and the surrounding events highlight the ongoing and complex debate surrounding free speech, academic freedom, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in the United States.

"Rashida Tlaib must be heard on campus as the only Palestinian member of Congress who plans to speak on an American issue at this event," the group stated. "ASU cannot claim to hold free speech as a principle while denying Palestinians their voices on campus."




http://instagr.am/p/CzwT9lHJYvP/


Amazing how quickly the left starts eating its own when one of them attempts free speech contradicting establishment orthodoxy, eh?
 
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The Oracle

Pronouns: Who/Cares
Mar 8, 2004
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On the slopes of Mount Parnassus, Greece
Just like when I used to watch Judge Judy on TV, no matter what Judge Judy's decision was, in almost every case neither the plaintiffs nor the defendants, during their post-trial interviews, seemed to be persuaded that their original positions were wrong.

The same is evident in this thread. But it is interesting, and perhaps even enlightening and educational for those willing to listen to both sides of the issue, to hear all reasonable points of view and express our individual opinions.

I agree though, that I have no confidence there is any ultimately peaceful solution to the Palestine/Israel conflict, and certainly none will arise from this thread. Nonetheless I will continue to participate as long as I feel I am learning from it, and can perhaps contribute something of value to the discussion.

This was an interesting segment..
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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Let's do this together, Frankie.

HAMAS fortifies a hospital and turns it deliberately into a stronghold in order to create a human shield. It then raids Israel and takes hostages in order to induce Israel to attack the area where the stronghold / hospital is.

Israel uses a school in a non war zone to accommodate soldiers in an area where there are probably no barracks and where it doesn't expect any fighting to occur. (And the kids are probably sent home and don't attend the school anyway).

If you can't spot the difference between the 2 examples, I truly despair of your IQ.
Mandrill, the only problem is there is zero evidence either of those things happened.
You're posting total IDF nonsense as if its true.

The IDF finally admitted that Hamas knew nothing about the rave, the dates and venue had been changed last minute, and that yes, the IDF did actually kill some Israelis as well as fire tank artillery in some Israeli houses trying to get Hamas.

Their stories about the hospital are idiotic, not even skoob would fall for that shite. Check Haaretz, the Israeli paper.
Then look at the destroyed cars in this photo and tell me you really believe Hamas has the weapons to do this.


 
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Frankfooter

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Okay dude here’s the reality. There’s two sides in this very complex conflict and you’ve decided to back one side SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY ARE UNDERDOGS. (Or maybe because the other side is Jews but I want to give you the benefit of the doubt).
That underdog side coincidentally represents medieval mysoginistic antisemitic cult of death and martyrdom but you don’t care.

Well your dark ass backwards side is going to lose.
And the side that represent less than 0.20% of the world's population, but represented 22.4% of all Nobel laureates, 208 out of 930 as of 2020) is going to win.
At least you're finally admitting that the Palestinians are the victims.
But then you follow it up with some Jewish supremacy bullshit that just exposes your racism.

All I have to say is that for a people that claim they are so smart you failed to see what everyone else sees coming.
The end of Israeli apartheid and Jewish supremacism in Israel/Palestine.

 

Frankfooter

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Body of second Israeli hostage killed by Hamas found near Shifa Hospital in Gaza: IDF (msn.com)


The Israel Defense Forces said on Friday that it recovered the body of Cpl. Noa Marciano from the Gaza Strip, three days after confirming she was killed by Hamas in captivity.

IDF troops found the body in a building adjacent to Shifa Hospital in Gaza City and returned it to Israel for identification.

View attachment 275736


Marciano, a resident of Modi’in in central Israel, was abducted from Kibbutz Nahal Oz, where she served as a lookout.
On Monday night, Hamas released a video of Marciano that the military described as “psychological terror.” The video claimed that she was killed in an airstrike in Gaza.

The next morning, the IDF cleared for publication that the 19-year-old had already died in captivity.

“After analyzing the footage, experts suggest that her injuries do not align with those typically sustained in airstrikes,” the IDF said in a statement. “The observed wounds appear more consistent with bullet injuries, and there is also an indication that she may have suffered from injuries related to a fall from a height.”


Hamas has denied the International Red Cross access to any of the estimated 240 captives being held in Gaza.

On Thursday night, the IDF announced that soldiers had located and recovered the body of Yehudit Weiss , 65, from a building near Shifa Hospital.

Hamas terrorists kidnapped both Marciano and Weiss during their Oct. 7 massacre of 1,200 people in southwestern Israel.

In recent weeks, Israel has provided extensive evidence that Hamas uses hospitals , mosques , schools and other civilian sites for their terror warfare against Israel, and that the terror group has a command center in the tunnel system underneath Shifa .


Earlier on Thursday, Dr. Muhammad Abu-Salamiyyah, director of Shifa , told Al Jazeera that “the IDF forces collected bodies from the hospital.”

Asked about the claim at the press conference, IDF Spokesperson Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari said: “We are working in Shifa Hospital for 48 hours. It’s a complex operation. It’s a large complex.

“In the operation, we found underground [infrastructure], weapons and we found information relating to the hostages. Next to the hospital, we found Yehudit Weiss,” he said.

“We will continue to update when we have confirmed information on all the additional achievements of the operation, and we hope for additional achievements,” added Hagari. “Until then, we must wait and be patient.”
And you believe the IDF?
Why?
 

versitile1

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Jan 15, 2013
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Brave IDF soldiers conquer hospital and capture 32 babies believed to be be Hamas leadership. In other news, crowded refugee camp hit by airstrike.

 
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