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How the Democrats are anti Democracy.

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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Did they do anything illegal?
No. But the current ballot access laws are pretty shitty.
Even if I am against plurality-winner voting and am well aware of the perverse effects of minor parties within that system, lots of states have really shitty systems for ballot access.
Sure, the Green Party is sloppy about ballot access in general and often screws itself, but that the rules are written to make it harder to get on than it need be is common.

That said, as long as the system is so susceptible to additional candidates, both parties are going to make legal maneuvers in response to every party's attempt to get on or off the ballot.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
32,141
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No, they ain't that stupid to vote for someone who pulled them out of the Paris Accord, and called Climate Change a "Hoax"!!
There are lots of Green voters who would vote Trump, I think.
Remember, some are just voting Green because they think Democrats suck but would feel bad about themselves if they voted for Trump or the GOP.
Without the Green option there, they might just hold their nose and vote for Trump.

As always, voters of any party in a FPTP system can't be assumed to be a monolith all voting for that party for the same reasons.
You get very little information about a voter's real preferences from that kind of ballot.
It's one of the many things that a systemic reform would help with, because the ballots under lots of other systems are more expressive.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
32,141
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The Greens are going to get less than 1% of the vote and will hurt the Dems in tight races.
That's the goal, yes.
Nationally, Stein isn't even going to be on every ballot. (I don't think the Greens have only ever been on in more than 40 states once in the last 20 years.)
But if she can get more than the 1% she polls nationally at in some key states, she may help cost the Dems a victory. (Of course, that depends a lot on who the voters voting Green when they are on the ballot are and what they would do if she isn't there.)
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
90,199
21,597
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That's the goal, yes.
Nationally, Stein isn't even going to be on every ballot. (I don't think the Greens have only ever been on in more than 40 states once in the last 20 years.)
But if she can get more than the 1% she polls nationally at in some key states, she may help cost the Dems a victory. (Of course, that depends a lot on who the voters voting Green when they are on the ballot are and what they would do if she isn't there.)
Its a little presumptuous to claim the goal of the Greens is to hurt the dems.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
32,141
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Anyone believing that should not be allowed to vote.
Whether it is true or not is irrelevant to Butler's point.
The message that gets to people is all that matters.
Narrative above all.
That message hurts Democrats, so therefore it is important for Butler to support it.
 

mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
75,155
82,865
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That's the goal, yes.
Nationally, Stein isn't even going to be on every ballot. (I don't think the Greens have only ever been on in more than 40 states once in the last 20 years.)
But if she can get more than the 1% she polls nationally at in some key states, she may help cost the Dems a victory. (Of course, that depends a lot on who the voters voting Green when they are on the ballot are and what they would do if she isn't there.)
That's the game plan.

This is the Vatnik Soup Twitter thread on Stein and her relationship with The Poo.

 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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So you are saying no third party or Independent candidates should be allowed to run?
Not what he said.

Actually, I would love to see the US have more than one party. But they don't. They have fringe folks running for president with no shot of winning. There is a difference.
It isn't going to happen in the current system, the structural issues are too great.
While I would also prefer more parties, I would also be ok with a much more clear understanding of how the parties work now.

The main difference between two parties and not in most systems is whether or not the coalitions form before the election or after.
There is some argument to be made that before is helpful.

The problem is that the two-party approach tends to hide the coalition-making and especially in a culture as politically disengaged as the US, it causes confusion since people don't understand what's going on.
It also makes breaking off and switching coalitions harder than it should be.

But then I'm notoriously in favor of a massive overhaul of the whole system to make voting much more expressive for the voters and much more transparent about how your vote affects the result.


Now, I could totally see the GOP split into two parties, one the far right MAGAs, and the other a more centerist GOP...We'll see if that ever happens.
If the GOP split, the question would be which one would wither away.
If the split was heavily regional, each could survive for a while.
 
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Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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Funny how you don't think it could also be Trump's record and lack of coherent policy....
Osborn's support seems to be mostly driven by the "anyone but our current Senator, she sucks" coalition.
It doesn't seem to be primarily driven by Trump.
 
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Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
32,141
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Again can you not comprehend that he has his boots on the ground in N. Carolina. Co-ordinating the relief to those in dire need.
No, no, no.
Your anecdotes about people you know delivered under a pseudonym over the internet are completely unreliable and false and irrelevant.
Butler's anecdotes about people he knows delivered under a pseudonym over the internet are completely true and definitive.

It's like you haven't even been paying attention to how things work.
;)
 
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mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
75,155
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Butler's political reality is the one that agrees with the stories in his head that he wants to believe.
So far, the Budder has supported RFK Jr, Jill Stein and Cornell Greene as antidotes to the awful Demos.

Does he still support any of the above clearly corrupt and grifting semi-nonentity dickheads?
 
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mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
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Now, I could totally see the GOP split into two parties, one the far right MAGAs, and the other a more centerist GOP...We'll see if that ever happens.
It won't.

Rightie parties across the West have clearly mass adopted the "populist corrupt dum-dum rage-farming outrage" model. That's not coincidence.

Probably their focus groups show them winning this way. And it allows no talent, stupid chunks of shit like Trump and PeePee to assume leadership roles that they would never get in a moderate right party with a shred of intellectual integrity.

Plus billionaire fascist assholes like Musk and foreign dictators like Poo Tin throw billions of $$$$$ at these parties because they know that they'll get their assholes licked and cocks sucked if the corrupt dimwit loudmouth assholes who now lead the right-of-centre parties win the next round of elections.

Just look at the Brit Tories who just eliminated smart guy - well relatively smart, I guess. He's a rightie after all. - James Cleverly and are staging a run-off for leadership between moronic, outrage-farmers Kemi Badenoch and Robert Jenrick. Both of these asswipes are "far right" and both are fairly clearly corrupt. Jenrick's defining moment was when he ordered a mural of happy, playful cartoon critters painted over at an asylum claimants' nursery playroom for toddlers - because "illegal immigrant children shouldn't be happy".

Yeah, he actually said that.
 
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Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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If you think Trump is pro democracy, you are insane.
Butler has many delusions about Trump, but I don't think he has ever pretended Trump was pro-democracy.
Being pro-democracy isn't something Butler values, so he has no need to be delusional about that.
 

NotADcotor

His most imperial galactic atheistic majesty.
Mar 8, 2017
6,978
4,686
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Except the Democrats are acting like Republicans using the courts and doing bad things. Stein said it best when she said the Demicrats are only offering you the choice of the lesser of two evils whereas we are offering the greater good.
Sounds like a good argument to vote for the Dems... well not to me, I am on team Cthulhu, why settle for the lessor evil. No more years.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
32,141
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Its a little presumptuous to claim the goal of the Greens is to hurt the dems.
It's more Stein's goal than the Greens overall. (Even as a tiny party, there are far too many Green party members to be considered a monolith.)
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
32,141
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It won't.

Rightie parties across the West have clearly mass adopted the "populist corrupt dum-dum rage-farming outrage" model. That's not coincidence.

Probably their focus groups show them winning this way.
Their main policies aren't popular, especially their economic ones.
Outrage farming was the easy solution.
That said, there IS probably room for a different sort of center-right party in the US.
 

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
30,181
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Butler has many delusions about Trump, but I don't think he has ever pretended Trump was pro-democracy.
Being pro-democracy isn't something Butler values, so he has no need to be delusional about that.
Acres and acres.
 
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