Dead at 75

[strange1]

... and the issue is of property or compensation. In the war of independence Isreal confiscated PAlestinain land illegally - any citicen who vacated their property duriring the fighting was deemed to have turned it over to ISreal. ISreal passed the property laws to make this so - and a source of resentment.

What this deal was missing, was the US should have paid off many of those property claimants - if they fund Isreal over $3.5B per year - then settel the land claims - and some of the supprt and funding might decline.

What happened to the property of jews who left iraq, syria, yemen, etc. during the anti-jewish riots of the time. Do they have the same expectation of recieving compensation for their property? You could also extend this to cultures all over the world who have been displaced or decided to find a better home.

It makes sense that a palestinian state could allow any immigration they wish. Israel does have a fear that all the descendants of those who left after independance renturn to israel and it becames a state with an arab majority.

Any plan for peace must be forward looking and not focus on the disputed facts of history.

 

[strange1]

...
What about all the innocent civilians who die from diseases attributed to malnutrition and lack of access to proper health care due to Israeli curfews, border closures and checkpoints?

Or it could be they are dieing from disease and malnutrition because their leaders abscond with the money donated to the cause.

 

[strange1]

...

2) If the palestinians and israelies swapped positions of power what would happen? If palestinians had the powerful army, there would be no such thing as Israelis, they'd be become extinct, they'd be exterminated and ethnically cleansed by the palestinians as the rhetoric amongst most palestinians is death to the jews, and driving the jews into the sea.

Pretty much what happend affter Israeli independance when the arab armies were supplied by the Brittish while the Israeli's were left to scrounge for weapons from any source they could find.

 

[Manji]

Or it could be they are dieing from disease and malnutrition because their leaders abscond with the money donated to the cause.

Thats true.
It is shameful that Arafat and the Palestinian Authority filled their coffers whle they let their people suffer.
But that still doesn't take away the fact, that the Israelis are also contributing to the mass suffering of the Palestinians.

 

[strange1]

Good guys and bad guys?
What are you ten years old?

Its true that there are Palestinians that are teaching/indoctrinating their children to hate Isrealis but I'm sure that its far from the majority of Palestinians.
And there are Israeli (such as the settlers) who indoctrinate their children to hate the Palestinians. ...

The textbooks officially endorsed by the PA include quite obvious anti-jewish curriculum. Arab charitable groups offered to replace these texts with books that were identical but without the indoctrination but despite the cost (FREE) they were refused.

Before Israel was created the Arabs didn't want that land?
What are you talking about?

ALL of the land owned by jews before the UN partition was owned by them because it was sold to them by wealthy ARAB land speculators (often the local leaders). They were sold the land precisely because it was not seen as productive land and was often swamp or desert. The jewish settlers worked their asses off to make the land useful. No reasonable person would look at the the history of environmental changes say that it wasn't made productive by the Israelis.

So where did the Palestinians come from?

Where did Palestinians come from? Take a look at history. Palestinians are arabs who lived in "Palestine." The only differences between them and other arabs were their tribal affiliations and the degree they had deviated from nomadic culture. Take a look at the map of "Palestine" under the Romans, the Ottomon empire or under the British mandate. It's size has varied as much as the owners. Jordan still has a sizeable minority (majority?) of non-Hashemite (ie. palestinian) arabs. Until 1967, many of the palestinians were officially Jordanian (although many were opposed to the Jordanian kings.


The Palestinians do have a common, unifying history since the partition. Unfortunately, most nationalist conflicts are complicated because until recent times, all populations moved around and mixed with their neighbours.

The Palestinians in Jordan and Lebanon are refugees for a reason. They didn't leave their lands volunatarily, they left because they were forced out.

This statement is the equivilent of saying that WWI started because Ferdinand was shot.

Some may have left because they were forced out, some because they didn't feel comfortable.(like the jews in arab countries at the time) Some left because their leaders told them to leave for a short while and when the jews were driven back into the sea, they would get their property back and more. In addition, most of the rural arab population was living in essentially a feudal system where the local leaders owned the land and rented/allowed the people to live there. The local leaders were responsible for most aspects of their peoples lives so when they told their people to leave, they left.

Throughout history, if people left their homes to fight with the enemies of their "home", their propery would be forfeit, even if they weren't accused of treason.

 

[strange1]

...

I think the Palestinians and many of the surrounding Arab countries have recognized Israel's right to exist.

I think it's just hard to believe that the same people who said they wouldn't stop until Israel was driven into the sea would have change their minds. I am hopeful that the new leadership will see a benefit in peaceful coexistance. It might even lead the Israelis elect a government to negotiate for a good peace.

I just had to balance cobra's multi post domination of the thread.

 

[revolution]

Aren't the "palestinians" displaced Jordanians and Egyptians?
There's no such thing as the "palestinian" people, they are just like any other arab.

Unfortunately most arab nations do not recognize Israel's right to exist. In many arab countries they call Israel "Palestine" and call jews the brothers of apes. That's what children are taught in their schools, not very tolerant of other cultures.

Just another interesting point, in the bible and the koran it says that israel belongs to the jews, there's not disagreement there, that's why it's odd that all those religious muslims want the jews in israel driven into the sea, it even says in their religious book that the land belongs to the jews.

I personally do not believe in religion, but if the "big three" religions, Christianity, Judaism and Isalm all believe Israel belongs to the jews what's the conflict over, assuming that the muslims wanting to drive the jews into the sea are religious, and they most likely are since they praise Allah before strapping C4 to their belt and blowing up babies on a bus.

 

[healer677]

Does he qualify for the virgins?

 

[strange1]

Please ignore revolutions youthful assumptions. (no offense intended)

Most arab nations have official diplomatic relations with israel. What their personal feelings are, I have no idea.

The middle east's borders are based on arbitrary borders defined by the powers of the times as they have been for centuries. Iraq, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon's current borders were determined by the French and Brits after WWI. Lebanon and "Palestine" were differentiated from the areas further east because of the difference between the coastal, mercantile (and therefore somewhat westernized) area and the inland, more traditional lifestyle. As I said before, there is a Palestinian people. There might not have been much of a distinction 100 years ago but there is now. If you go to the effort, you can probably research the tribal alliances of what is now the palestinian people and how they differed from other arabs. They might be minor differences but I am sure enough blood was spilled over tribal differences.

As for biblical rights, change to past tense. The big three state that Israel belonged to the jews. Modern Israel belongs to the jews (at least those living there) because of modern politico-military agreements.

 

[slowandeasy]

Revolution is using the GWB logic

ok let's take it a step further since some of you still don't understand who the good and bad guy is.

I support Israel because:
1) They don't target innocent civilians in the same manner that palestinians do. They could easily wipe the palestinians off the map, they don't. They only target terrorists and terrorist leaders from Hamas and other terrorist organizations.

2) If the palestinians and israelies swapped positions of power what would happen? If palestinians had the powerful army, there would be no such thing as Israelis, they'd be become extinct, they'd be exterminated and ethnically cleansed by the palestinians as the rhetoric amongst most palestinians is death to the jews, and driving the jews into the sea.

3) Israel is a civilized democracy, which is rare in the middle east. Israel's values and policies are more in line with Canada's. They are not run by dictators, they share the same democratic values as all other civilized nations.

4) Palestinian children are taught in schools to hate jews, to kill jews, that jews are the enemy of allah, and their math lessons involve "how many jews can you kill if you have one rifle and a suicide bomb belt?" Whereas in Israel, the civilized democracy, they're not taught to hate the palestinians.

5) Before Israel was created, none of the arabs wanted the land, it was an empty desert. Once Israel made it into a lush, beautiful place all the arabs started wanting it. They just can't come grips with the fact that jews live in the middle of a muslim region. They don't want 99.9% of the middle east, they want 100%, a bit selfish no?

6) The palestinians don't want to live side by side with Israel, they want their state on top of Israel, therefore, they'll never accept a two state solution.

7) According to palestinians, they want jewish settlements out of the west bank and gaza, they don't want jews in their territories... yet it's perfectly ok for arabs to live in israel, be members of parliament, vote, and have the same rights as Israelis.

8) Even though there is animosity between jews and arabs, the arabs living in Israel have a better life living in Israel then if they were to live in any arab nation. Arab nations are run by brutal, oppressive, and intolerant dictators, whereas Israel is a civilized democracy.

I think you get the point. The good guy in this conflict is undoubtedly Israel, that's why Canada is now shifting their position to being more pro-Israel at the UN.

Maybe George Bush Sr. taught him the mantra..

"If I repeat the same thing over and over again....sooner or later people will start to thing that I know what I am talking about, at the very worse, they will say that I am decisive...don't listen to what anyone else has to say, it will only confuse you....keep sticking to the same story.....trust me son it works.."


Keep it up revolution, you just might convince yourself that you know what you are talking about....

 

[scouser1]

yes it is people who have ideas like revolution who keep the extreme right wing in Israel upholding their ideals and oppressing an entire people, Israel isnt a democracy in the full sense, Arab citizens cannot buy and live on any land that they wish to, Arab citizens have to have different licence plates from Jewish citizens hmmm that are yellow, hmmm sound familiar anyone yellow stars of David, yellow licence plates the history of the Jews of having one single unified state is pretty much not impressive, not targeting civilians what do you call when Israeli helicopters fire into an apartment building just to get one person, any act of violence against civiiians is terrorism alright tirade done

 

[rama putri]

About time. Should have died in the 60s.

 

[slowandeasy]

Re: Re: Revolution is using the GWB logic

...and this advice doesn't work in the same way for those who spin the Palistinian cause? The primary reason this political problem will remain unsolved is that both sides are unable or unwilling to see the others point of view - your post is a perfect example of this.

if you set out to kill innocents in the name of some cause your a terrorist and nothing will ever change that - and I personally don't care what nationality you fall under. And before some idiot rants about Israels missles that kill civillians - keep in mind what or who they are targeting - remember the word deliberate.


bbk

bbking....hmmm bbking.... aren't you the guy who harrassed TOG out of business??? the guy who was banned from TERB???

So what side of the fence are you sitting on today bbk? in case you did not read most of this thread before crafting your insightful reply, you might consider that revolutions position has been extremely pro-Israel and anti Muslim... most of the replies to revolution's comments have been calls for understanding from both sides.

RE: "if you set out to kill innocents..blah blah blah...." It's all frontier justice, and its not acceptable regardless if they target criminals or terrorists, or other. Regardless of whether they kill their intended target, regardless if the intended target was actually involved in the crime he was accused of... if the Israeli army go out to target a "terrorist" and blow up a building full of civilians, they become just like the terrorists they so vehemently denounce.

Not too many rational people will or can defend a suicide bomber regardless of their target (civilian or military)..... Let me make it clear, I do not condone many of the activities that Palestinians use.... However, most rational people also cannot deny that there are too many defenders of the Israeli actions in response to terrorism.... The point being that both sides use Terrorism, except people like yourself cannot admit the truth... "Its a military strike" they say.....

Somewhere in Canadain law it identifies a crime where a person should realize that the results of their action would be a crime. ... so shooting a gun at an office building's window that results in the death of someone in the office is a homocide. That person will be charges and convicted in the death because he/she could have forseen the death..... Without a doubt, the Israeli's shoot into windows or they simply blow up the building/person and everyone else around it.

AND YET we get too many jerkoffs who spout off about the terrorists on one side that then justify the use of terrorism on the other side...


BTW what are you going to do now that TOG has closed down...

 

[zydeco]

Am I missing something here? What's the connection between TOG and the subject matter of this thread?

 

[pool]

as the war machine keeps turning

You know I really get tired of this statement - if you set out to kill innocents in the name of some cause your a terrorist and nothing will ever change that

This definition - one man's terrorist is anothers freedom fighter belittles the true meaning of a freedom fighter and somehow justifies the criminal act of terror.

I think the statement,"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter", sums it up very accurately.

I don't think you are missing the point and I do understand your perspective, but the whole point is that it is your definition of a freedom fighter and what constitutes a terrorist. From many Palestinians POV they are fighting for freedom, just as, from many Americans POV [right or wrong] their troops and those who support them are fighting for [or to preserve] freedom.


A couple of incidents apparently carried out by Israeli prime ministers which have been labelled as terrorism:

Menachem Begin, whose Irgun blew up the King David Hotel and carried out the massacre of Palestinian villagers in Deir Yassin in April of 1948

Ariel Sharon, as head of Force 101, is accused of massacring scores of Palestinian villagers at Qibya in 1953 in a reprisal raid for the murder of an Israel woman and her children.



Getting back to Revolution's implication that it is simple to differentiate the "good" guys from the "bad" guys. I realise the words were placed in inverted commas, but I think it is an extremely grey area. Shouldn't bad be defined as anyone who contributes to the "axis of evil" [or could it be anyone who doesn't try to intervene]. If one merely supports actions, inadvertently or not, which contribute to cycles of violence or the loss of "innocent" lives are they the "bad guys" ?

It seems that we define what is considered good vs bad by intention and motivation rather than result. However, in retrospect it seems that events like the bombing of Nagasaki were a good thing for the "greater good".



Satan, laughing, spreads his wings.

 

[revolution]

Look at those civilized palestinians, the ones shooting into the air in a chaotic riot at Arafat's funeral, the ones who just today tried to kill Palestinian PM Abbas, the ones who do not want democracy, the ones who will never accept jews living in the middle of all those arab countries, the ones whom support suicide bombings (75% of their population).

They behave like uncivilized animals, sorry it's hard to defend such barbaric, inhumane, savages.

 

[papasmerf]

Rev

it seems people here in the west celebrate life and death in a different manner. Well not all of the west.

 

[revolution]

Ok then I quess you have something to say about the LA law prohibiting the firing weapons into the air. This law was made necessary due to the deaths caused by falling bullets after some celebration in south central LA.

So does your uncivilized animals apply to Americans?


bbk

interesting how you focus on only one aspect of that sentence... if you discard that one part, you can still see why the palestinians act live uncvilized animals.

 

[revolution]

No, in fact I fail to see anything about your BS argument that justifies the way Palestinians act or are any different than other human being.

Your position is a classic way that ignorant people like yourself try make it easier to hate a group of people by trying to make them into something inhuman.

I didn't misunderstand your position at all.

bbk

I don't hate them at all, and I don't think they're subhuman, but you, as a left wing lunatic, choose to ignore the fact that in the arab world, particularly the palestinians, the citizens act like uncivilized animals. They support suicide bombings, beheadings, and the oppression of women.

Why don't you go march in a "peace" process with the terrorists you support and burn American flags, you'd fit right in.

 

[Manji]

revolution

Isn't there another board that you can go on and promote your hatred and ignorance?
You say you don't hate Palestinians at all but everything you write about them screams hatred against these people.