Dead at 75

[Manji]

Why stop at the wall, revolution?
Why not just wipe them out? After all, they are "uncivilized animals".

What kind of person would you turn out to be if you had grow up in the same conditions as a majority of Palestinians. Judging by the person you are now, we can safely assume that you would be the biggest "animal" of them all.

 

[strange1]

Eventually, Israel and Palestine will find it mutually beneficial to coexist. That being said, I do think the idea of the wall (if not it's actual path) to be a key part of the peace.

The idea of the wall is just the idea of having a well defined border between the two states and is extremely important. Preventing people from crossing the border between two hostile countries is standard and sensible. A closely guarded border WILL make it less likely for a suicide bomber to succeed. To put it another way, when your kids fight, you seperate them until they cool down. Due to the depth of the conflict, this might take some time. Neither side will be able to blame their problems on each other and will have to move forward and take responsiblity for the things under their control.

More importantly, the idea of a closed border will show both sides how much they rely on each other. A large number of Palestinians work in Israel, or at least did before this intifada. The Israelis simlarly count on the Palestinians as a labour force. A closed border will have a severe economic impact on both sides and show both sides that working peaceful economic cooperation is a need. After 100 years of conflict, both sides need a swift kick in the but to get them moving forwards.

 

[revolution]

Eventually, Israel and Palestine will find it mutually beneficial to coexist. That being said, I do think the idea of the wall (if not it's actual path) to be a key part of the peace.

The idea of the wall is just the idea of having a well defined border between the two states and is extremely important. Preventing people from crossing the border between two hostile countries is standard and sensible. A closely guarded border WILL make it less likely for a suicide bomber to succeed. To put it another way, when your kids fight, you seperate them until they cool down. Due to the depth of the conflict, this might take some time. Neither side will be able to blame their problems on each other and will have to move forward and take responsiblity for the things under their control.

More importantly, the idea of a closed border will show both sides how much they rely on each other. A large number of Palestinians work in Israel, or at least did before this intifada. The Israelis simlarly count on the Palestinians as a labour force. A closed border will have a severe economic impact on both sides and show both sides that working peaceful economic cooperation is a need. After 100 years of conflict, both sides need a swift kick in the but to get them moving forwards.

I agree, the security fence is definately the best solution I've seen so far, I really doubt there will ever be peace in the middle east, just seperate them, and innocent civilians will stop getting blown up. It's working so far!

 

[revolution]

... the barrier is working??? Really, I thought the fact that 25K a head supplied by Sadaam being gone ( thanks to the Yanks) played a bigger roll.
The real solution is to get the two sides to come to an agreement. The 'Wall' will not only hamper Palistine's economic developement, and of course people with no money in their wallets are always happy campers, and Isreal's economic developement due to the really offended trading partners in Europe and North American who view this wall as something very offensive. The "Wall is about the dumbest thing Israel has ever done and will only serve to keep both sides from coming to a real solution.


bbk

oh very nice, I wouldn't have thought that you bbking would support a wall that protects innocent civilians from being blown up in suicide bomb attacks over the inconvenience that might ensue for palestinians.

Of course to you, an uncivilized brute, the convenience of the palestinians is more important than the lives of the israelies.

The moral hypocricy that you possess is unreal, and sad.

 

[onthebottom]

I agree, the security fence is definately the best solution I've seen so far, I really doubt there will ever be peace in the middle east, just seperate them, and innocent civilians will stop getting blown up. It's working so far!

If the Israelis had built this on the Green line no one would be complaining - but again the Israelis are screwing the Palestinians and playing the victim.

OTB

 

[Peeping Tom]

Apart from all the doom and gloom surrounding this controversial topic, I hope Bush pushes (forces) a settlement. It would be a legacy of epic proportions.

Some relevant details:

Bush doesn't get the Jewish vote so the GOP can't be punished if Israel doesn't like the solution.

Timing: Bush has four years before retirement. The next POTUS, regardless of party, will have to consider incumbency, pushing the window to eight years from now. Of course, an incumbent could lose - if that happens keep adding four years.

Bush does have the authority and fortitude to bark Sharon into a corner. One imagines Cheney taking on this role. Carter or Clinton could be used to bring the Palestinians online.

Above all, it must be impressed upon both sides that policy in this department must be mutually agreeable and rational in origin. The opinions of bearded moonbats wearing Halloween costumes have to be silenced.

Well, one can hope ...

 

[strange1]

... The 'Wall' will not only hamper Palistine's economic developement, ...

I don't understand this expectation. Why does one country have the obligation to provide financial assistance for their hostile neighbour? A Palestinian state will only be feasable if it develops it's own economic infrastructure. How would you expect the Palestinians to develop as an independant state if thee peoples only opportunity is as a migrant labourer in Israel?

It will take a significant amount of international support to provide assistance. It is unfortunate that the "father" of the palestinians is widely known to have taken international aid money and made it dissapear, as many countries will be reluctant to provide support.

Unfortunately, the wall won't be built on the green line due to internal politics. Besides the religous angle, Israel has spent large amounts of money developing the west bank, especially near tel aviv and would be unlikely to give it up easily.

 

[slowandeasy]

The Jewish People

Having gotten wrapped up in revolutions ramblings, I noticed something very interesting. Any psychologist or psychiatrist on the board jump in and help please...

As Revolution vehemently defended his position, even the moderates became polarized around a position that was further and further from their own position as they tried to distance themselves from Revolution

Even bbking seemed to move to the left. As Revolution continued pushing further and further, many of us moved in the other direction.

Lost in all of this was any positive feedback about the other side's position. For example, I have a tremendous amount of respect for the "Jewish People" (i put it in quotes because I do not know what is the correct term). This is a group of people who 50 years ago were rounded up and slaughtered. In the years... no decades following WW11, the discrimination against Jews was oppressive. YET, they have achieved so much inspite of the obstacles that they have faced. They have maintained so much of their culture and values that I believe that they could be considered a role model for people who have faced oppression and discrimination and achieved success.

Inspite of all the problems that they have faced, this group of people have been able to rise up and meet the challenge, and yet retained enough humility to give back so much to people of all races and religion (in the form of charity etc.).

I have no prejudices against Jew or Israel. I have a deep respect for the religion and the people.

However, in the Middle East, I think that Israel is the bully boy that is still trying to play the role of the underdog. My main issue in all of this is that Israel's tactics in dealing with the conflict is similar to Palestinian tactics, but Israeli's and their backers refuse to admit this.

 

[Drunken Master]

Re: The Jewish People

Having gotten wrapped up in revolutions ramblings, I noticed something very interesting. Any psychologist or psychiatrist on the board jump in and help please...

As Revolution vehemently defended his position, even the moderates became polarized around a position that was further and further from their own position as they tried to distance themselves from Revolution

Even bbking seemed to move to the left. As Revolution continued pushing further and further, many of us moved in the other direction.

Well, I think some of this "moving to the left" was simple revulsion against some of the moronic things revolution was saying - to wit:

interesting, considering 75% of the palestinian population supports suicide bombings, that means you support terrorist supporters, which by association means YOU support terrorists.

You're right though - there's a certain point at which arguing with fools produces foolish arguments.

 

[strange1]

... it would be in Isreals best interest to have a Palestinian state ( lets face it, it's coming) who's people are well feed, well educated.

I agree completely. It is unfortunate that billions of dollars that have been donated have ended up in personal fortunes instead of helping to build the infrastructure as they were meant to. The Israelis are between a rock and a hard place. There is endemic poverty in the Palestinian territories and it can not be fixed right away. If the border is open, there will still be some people so desperate to become suicide bombers getting through. If they close the border, there willl be more poverty and therefore more motivaton.Israel's only choice would be to find a policy that has a closed border and still helps to support the development of of an economicaly feasible and therefore satisfied people. Once a Palestinian state, I feel that Israels's policy would be best if it was detached enough from Palestinians so the Palestinian people have no choice but to blame their own leaders for their problems, the same way it happens in most democracys.

l not be the total solution but I have to wonder what the Palestinians think who have jobs in Israel about all the violence and border closings, I'm sure they are not happy with it.

Some of them might see the connection between loosing their jobs and the intefada. At least according to "from beruit to jerusalem" there are many palestinians who disagree with the extremists but have no choice to go along.

 

[Peeping Tom]

Re: The Jewish People

No way, not similar at all ...

Why?

Firstly, Israel is a sovereign State. At some point in history, the people that formed Israel had the self determination to do it. One voice spoke for all.

That is the problem of the Palestinians. They have Abbas, Hamas, Hezbollah ... no single group has a monopoly on the use of violence. How can the West aid in creating a sovereign Palestine? Who do we talk to? Abbas? Hamas? A travelling carpet salesman?

As a sovereign State, Israel can invoke the rights of nature in dealing with a security threat. They may seem heavy handed but actually act with great restraint and a good level of precision

My main issue in all of this is that Israel's tactics in dealing with the conflict is similar to Palestinian tactics, but Israeli's and their backers refuse to admit this.

 

[slowandeasy]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Peeping Tom
No way, not similar at all ...

Why?

Firstly, Israel is a sovereign State. At some point in history, the people that formed Israel had the self determination to do it. One voice spoke for all.

That is the problem of the Palestinians. They have Abbas, Hamas, Hezbollah ... no single group has a monopoly on the use of violence. How can the West aid in creating a sovereign Palestine? Who do we talk to? Abbas? Hamas? A travelling carpet salesman?

As a sovereign State, Israel can invoke the rights of nature in dealing with a security threat. They may seem heavy handed but actually act with great restraint and a good level of precision [/QUOTE]

OK...perhaps I am dense, but I am still not getting your point...
but I think I used the wrong terms in saying "Israeli Tactics are similiar to Palestinian Tactics".... but using my own twisted logic, you seem to be proving my point........This sovereign state, this democracy, these civilized people should be able to deal with this problem in a more positive manner rather than sink to the level of the aggressors.

EXAMPLE:
One person from one of the groups (Abbas, Hamas, Yourass, Hezbollah, Abba, The BeeGees etc...) suicide bombs a bus and kills 10 people wounding 20 more. You must realize that this is not the Palestinian people who did this. This is one group of people who may represent a small fraction of the population. This is some idiot who has been brainwashed to carry out this nonsense or is it...

Surely, this democratic civilized state should recognize this. Surely, their leaders and deep thinkers who run this civilized
state must understand that they are dealing with a number of "rogue" groups who have nothing to gain from peace and everyting to lose??

So instead of taking the high road, the civilized state orders their well equipped army to launch a strike at one of the leaders of this group. In the process they kill 3 - 5 people and wound 15 more.

Role Play with me here
Now, I am the moderate... I am one of the struggling Palestinians walking down the road taking my kids to school. All I want is to provide a good life for my children and hope that they can find a good life. Perhaps one day they will be able to leave this shit hole, but right now their only hope is to go to school. So I am walking down the street taking my kids to school and one of those nice US Supplied Israli helicopters fly overhead. I have seen them a number of times, and everytime I see them I think..."man what must America be like if they can create such amazing machines".

Only this time, the helicopters circle around and start firing on a car that is parked right next to where I am walking....Car blows up, we take cover. Things settle down, and I pick my self up from the ground.... look over to my kids, and I see blood. I try to wake them up, but they are not breathing. They are both dead..
Some of the leaders from those groups that I don't like, the ones that preach violence show up to the funeral. I think about Israel, and all that they have, why do they have to kill my children...
I think of the wealth and power that America has, why do they have to supply machines that are used to kill my children. Allah teaches us peace and love, but how can there be peace and love in a world where I am struggling to feed my children, and those who have everything would take my children away from me. Why do they hate our people so much that they would kill innocent children.... So I think "Perhaps those groups that say that violence is the only way for us to get them to listen make sense.."

Perhaps these Jews and Americans are demons who what our people.

Two weeks later... I am walking into a cafe with as much explosives that I can get. I even choose a time when there are children in the cafe because I want them to feel my pain...

You can now reverse the players in this little act. So that the father taking his kids for Ice Cream at the cafe is Jewish and run the scene again.....

If this sounds far fetched to you, then I think I see the problem. The villification of the the Palestinians and the deitfication of the Israelis in some people's eyes needs to stop.

There are a number of evil people (oversimplification, but bear with me) in this drama. However, there is evil on both sides. Is there more evil on one side than the other... Probably...

At the end of the day, this problem is not going to go away until people on both sides stop hating each other.

When will this happen, I don't know. Perhaps when there is one Israeli and one Palestinian left standing. Perhaps not..

 

[revolution]

Re: Re: The Jewish People

I really should clarify this. I am not right of centre, never have been even when I was making a tidy sum of money and never will. Because I don't ride with the hysterical left does not reduce my believe in that the State has responsibilty to all it's citizens - that all have access to an equal education and equal opportunity. I believe that state is responsible for this citizens that can't keep up due to disability and illness - and I really believe that those who have done well with what society has to offer, have a responsibilty to give back to society beyond paying taxes. I get the impression that some of you think being a Liberal is the same as being a socialist. This couldn't be further from the truth - Socialists have an inherient mistrust of authority and institutions a real Liberal doesn't believe this. In my eyes being a Liberal is being able to take the best ideas from left and right and come up with a Liberal point of view - in other words flexible. This most likely the reason Liberals have ruled Canada for most of it's history. To the Americans this is what the Ds have lost, they had it with Clinton but went back to the old ways with Gore and Kerry. Anyways I maybe slightly to the right of Martin but I have always been a Liberal and no matter how idiotic Rev is, it will never change my political point of view.


bbk

you're the only idiot here... you voted to re-elect the liberals after they wasted all your money, and were involved in scandal after scandal. No matter how much they lie and cheat you'd still vote for the liberals... that's what I call an idiot!!

 

[onthebottom]

you're the only idiot here...

If only that were true!

OTB

 

[revolution]

If only that were true!

OTB

you're absolutely right! he's not the only idiot, I forgot you, thanks for the reminder!

 

[Drunken Master]

you're absolutely right! he's not the only idiot, I forgot you, thanks for the reminder!

Oh, shut up. You really think calling all and sundry idiots gains you respect or bolsters your shoddy and poorly thought-out arguments?

Believe me, sunshine, the majority of people on this board are much, much, much smarter than you are. While some us might fail at times to engage in serious or well-thought debate, you fail to do so in every post, and as a result resort to puerile name-calling.

waits for revolution to look up "puerile" in his Big Picture Dictionary

My advice: Grow up, or leave. You won't be missed.

 

[onthebottom]

you're absolutely right! he's not the only idiot, I forgot you, thanks for the reminder!

Hey, that's really clever. Are you going to add DM based on his post too.... perhaps we should start a "been called an idiot by revolution" club - bbking, as you were the first I nominate you head puba.

Over to you bbking.....

OTB

 

[revolution]

haha that's hilarious! only poor SOB's like you vote liberal... people with money vote CONSERVATIVE! Hence, why I voted conservative, you ninnyhammer.

It's sad to see that all the old fogies gang up on me because:
1) I have more intelligence than them.
2) I grew up in an affluent family, and have more money than them.
3) I can get laid for free, while you losers have to pay.

I don't want to argue with you idiots anymore, you're a waste of time, is there a way I can get my profile deleted?

 

[Drunken Master]

Ask the moderators to be banned.

Please.

 

[revolution]

Ask the moderators to be banned.

Please.

it's alright, I would have stopped coming a long time ago but you idiots keep this thread alive and call me names, so I'm forced to reply, if you shutup already I can leave.