Dead at 75

[Big Sleazy]

I hate to say it but the only thing that will bring peace to the Middle East is a good bloodletting. Take a look at a map. israel is surrounded by what ? 14 ( or is it 16 ) Arab countries that want Israel to cease and exist. israel looks like a golf course when you see Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt etc... I hope they can somehow live in peace but I don't see it happening. They hate each others guts. It reminds me of the StarTrek episode with the guy that played the Riddler. He was black on one side of his face and white on the other. His nemesis was the opposite. And they were destined to live for eternity fighting at each other's throats. But never to die.

BS

 

[DATYdude]

booboo:

If you're statement is correct then Israel would not have been negotiating with the Palestinians for 10 years. In fact the negotiations began many years ago, with Egypt they began 30 years ago, even though Egypt lost a war. All this in the face of Israel's supposed military superiority. In terms of inflictionof harm, terrorism is effective, and it's true that terrorism played a part in getting Israel to discuss a land-for-peace deal. It's also what has kept Israel away from the negotiating table for 3 years.

Terrorism is not the only weapon the Palestinians have; the 1987 uprising, which is probably the closest thing to passive resistance was the most effective "weapon" they ever used.

Your comment was stupid in part because it was based on false premises. Don't be insulted, a stupid comment doesn't make YOU stupid.

Cobra: I KNEW you'd be back! You make strong arguments, and certainly there WAS an inquiry into Sabra and Chatila (which you will call a whitewash, well it's better than anything the Arabs have ever done to investigate their own mass killings), so there is information. One thing is clear, Sharon NEVER ORDERED Lebanese Christian Arabs to massacre Palestinian Muslim Arabs in the refugee camps, and no Israeli soldier pulled the trigger. Sharon bears some responsibility for the deaths though, since it was foreseeable that a massacre was to take place --- when the CHristians had the Israeli army behind them which turned the tables in the 10 year old Lebanese civil war that only started, when? AFTER ARAFAT AND HIS PALS MOVED TO LEBANON WHEN KING HUSSEIN KICKED THEM OUT OF JORDAN! Go figure. So I'm pinning some of the blame for those deaths on Arafat. QUite a team they were, Arafat and Sharon.

In terms of the numbers, are you sure about your calculations?

 

[Cobra1]

Take a look at a map. israel is surrounded by what ? 14 ( or is it 16 ) Arab countries that want Israel to cease and exist. israel looks like a golf course when you see Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt etc...
BS

This is incorrect - wade through Isreals rhetoric in the US - spend some time there - and things have changed. Egypt and Jordan are officially bought off by the US (although many of Isreals actions in building settlements have endangered that peace) - and Syria would be more than willing to be peaceful if they would only return land illegally taken in 1967. Lebanon is quiet with the exception of whenever Isreal decides to violate its sovernity whenever things cool down - this is a deliberate aggitating technique. Iraq is now pacified, and Iran is full of bluster hoping the ISrealis dont pre-emtively attack it sresearch sites/nucs. Iran and ISreal actually have worked together alot - if you recall the Irangate weapons deals were between Iran and ISreal. Iran prodded Hezbollah to launch an unmanned craft last week as a means of telling Isreal to stand down - but it is exceptionally unlikely Iran would ever attack ISreal - impossibel geographjy notwithstanding. Libya and others including Saudi are peacefull with Isreal - however again, the wall and further land grabs in the West bank put this at risk.

If you havenot spent time in the JEwish quarter of Damascus, on a Friday night at the synogoge - then you really dont understand the reality on the ground. It helps the Isrealis cause in NA for fundraising to have you all think there are these masses of Arab armies poised to attack the defensless little democracy of Jews - but reality is different. Isral is the big dog in the region, backed up by both the 5th and 6th fleet of the US.

 

[DATYdude]

I have to agree with you Cobra, it's time to stop looking at Israel as weak.

I hope you're right about Iran, because there have been statements out of Iran saying that once they have the capability they will nuke Israel. Scary.

You mention the Jewish quarter of Damascus, which used to thrive with... Jews. There are about 50 left from what I understand and since the creation of Israel the Syrian Jewish community was among the most oppressed in the world. Tell me I'm wrong. Ok maybe not so much more than Syarians themselves were oppressed under Hafez Assad, I'm thinking about 10,000 dead in Hams in one weekend, then buried and paved over in mass graves. And you call Sharon a war criminal.

But we were talking about Arafart! Too bad his gang didn't move to Syria in 1970!

 

[booboobear]

booboo:

If you're statement is correct then Israel would not have been negotiating with the Palestinians for 10 years.
.

Your comment was stupid in part because it was based on false premises. Don't be insulted, a stupid comment doesn't make YOU stupid.

Sharon bears some responsibility for the deaths though, since it was foreseeable that a massacre was to take place --- ?

I see you chose not to comment on what the Americans are doing .

The sad part is the Israelis have supposedly been negotiating for 10 yrs and today they seem no further ahead . I fear like the opinion expressed before that these nations are destined to be in conflict forever.

Was my comment based on false premises, I don't think so . Like I said terroism is used in the face of superior weapons.
You make a false statement when you say Israel did not use WMD , depends what you mean ( not the George Bush definition )

They destroy buildings with rockets fired from modern fighters and their tanks destroy buildings and fire on people . Compared to what the Palestinians have I think this qualifies as mds. Maybe if the Palestinians had a nuclear weapon they would use it and be destroyed I don't know. I have no answer for the region and little hope.

 

[DATYdude]

I have plenty of hope. Neither side is stupid, both sides are tired. Simple steps to peace:

1. Palestinians haev free and fair elections.

2. Palestinian leadership stops attacks against Israelis, if not 100% stoppage, at least real effort with real results.

3. Israel agrees to give back most of what it took in the 1967 war, and gives reasonable, if not generous compensation for what it keeps. Palestinians agree, give up right of return for refugees, some sort of deal to share holy places in Jerusalem. Most of these compromises have already been worked out.

4. Forgive.

5. Forget.

6. Open 1000 Tim Hortons in holy land.

 

[save me]

lets hope things begin to improve now, but who knows

 

[revolution]

It's just so difficult to comprehend why anyone would support the palestinian cause and their use of terrorism to achieve it.

Their goal is to destroy Israel, drive the jews into the sea, and build a palestinian state on top of it. They've done polls, and the majority of palestinians believe in suicide bombing and believe it's right. I'm sure you've seen them.

It's really simple who the "good" and "bad" guys are. The bad guys are the ones who target innocent civilians on buses and restaurants. Although Israel is not perfect, they never target innocent civilians, only terrorist leaders.

If it's still so hard to figure out which side is the good side, just imagine the Israelis and Palestinians were in opposite positions. Imagine if the Palestinians had a powerful army, nukes etc. What do you think would happen? That's right. They'd kick the jews out of the country and/or destroy their whole population, which seems to be what the arab world tries to do anyways.

 

[booboobear]

It's just so difficult to comprehend why anyone would support the palestinian cause and their use of terrorism to achieve it.

Their goal is to destroy Israel, drive the jews into the sea, and build a palestinian state on top of it. . They'd kick the jews out of the country and/or destroy their whole population, which seems to be what the arab world tries to do anyways.

I would like to think there are intelligent people on both sides.
I don't think terrorists speak for everyone I more agree with Datydude that sensible people could work out a settllement not that they will. If you train your people to hate that's what they will always do. Don't forget terrorists have their own agenda.

 

[booboobear]

I have plenty of hope. Neither side is stupid, both sides are tired. Simple steps to peace:

1. Palestinians haev free and fair elections.

2. Palestinian leadership stops attacks against Israelis, if not 100% stoppage, at least real effort with real results.

3. Israel agrees to give back most of what it took in the 1967 war, and gives reasonable, if not generous compensation for what it keeps. Palestinians agree, give up right of return for refugees, some sort of deal to share holy places in Jerusalem. Most of these compromises have already been worked out.

4. Forgive.

5. Forget.

6. Open 1000 Tim Hortons in holy land.

I just left work for a Tim break and I agree those Blueberry danishes might do the trick.

 

[revolution]

why is the palestinian/israeli conflict always in the front of the newspaper?

there are so many other conflicts in the world with many more casualties. In Sudan right now the arab militia are slaughtering thousands of black Sudanese christian and animist by the week, yet nobody hears about that on the news, is that because they're black and african and nobody cares about them? It's disgusting.

It seems that an african life is worth nothing, why doesn't the world do anything?

 

[booboobear]

why is the palestinian/israeli conflict always in the front of the newspaper?

there are so many other conflicts in the world with many more casualties. In Sudan right now the arab militia are slaughtering thousands of black Sudanese christian and animist by the week, yet nobody hears about that on the news, is that because they're black and african and nobody cares about them? It's disgusting.

It seems that an african life is worth nothing, why doesn't the world do anything?

I agree we should push our GOVT to do more, it is disgusting .

The brutal truth, is like you said, they are black but mostly they are the poorest of the poor. They have no rich powerful people in the U.S. govt to fight for there lives. It is sad.

 

[Peeping Tom]

The "palestinians" have to overcome two obstacles if they want to attain statehood. Firstly, they must accept a common leader who can achieve a monopoly on the use of force. This is more difficult than it might seem. Perhaps the methods of Iraq's deposed sultan need to be considered - a far reaching network of corruption and brutality to any sign of tribal conflict.

The second thing they must do is renounce any alliances on the American left. Those sitting in ivory towers at northeast universities have inflicted far more damage than the IDF. If "palestinians" wish to attain statehood they must refuse to be manipulated as pawns of the left.

 

[revolution]

The "palestinians" have to overcome two obstacles if they want to attain statehood. Firstly, they must accept a common leader who can achieve a monopoly on the use of force. This is more difficult than it might seem. Perhaps the methods of Iraq's deposed sultan need to be considered - a far reaching network of corruption and brutality to any sign of tribal conflict.

The second thing they must do is renounce any alliances on the American left. Those sitting in ivory towers at northeast universities have inflicted far more damage than the IDF. If "palestinians" wish to attain statehood they must refuse to be manipulated as pawns of the left.

I agree, well said.

 

[strange1]

This is incorrect - wade through Isreals rhetoric in the US - spend some time there - and things have changed. Egypt and Jordan are officially bought off by the US

Maybe it's because Jordan and Egypt figured the cost of running a continual war against a well prepared enemy would bankrupt the country. (how's the US financial policy doing?) Also consider it wasn't until during the 1973 war that significant US aid was sent to Israel to counter the Soviet support of Egypt and Syria. Add to that the fact that Gaza and to some extent the West Bank could have been returned in the peace deals if Egypt/Jordan had any interest in adding to their own ethnic minorities.

...and Syria would be more than willing to be peaceful if they would only return land illegally taken in 1967.

Since when does losing land in a war become illegal? I guess that the US is living in land illegally taken from the Brits. Syria has been a political non-entity since then. They barely have the strength to keep themselves together. They have been pretty peacful for years except for their support of hezbolla and other anti-israel groups. Besides, the Golan has little of anything besides its strategic value. (which is pretty useless for Syria to have unless they plan another invasion)

Lebanon is quiet with the exception of whenever Isreal decides to violate its sovernity whenever things cool down

If you consider a fairly constant threat of mortar and rocket attacks by hezbolla. Why do you think they got involved in the first place?

I do agree that Israel is far from a weakling. Of course if they were, they wouldn't be much of anything right now.

 

[strange1]

I also find it disgusting that Canada is sending an official representative to the funeral. Ignoring the political "terrorist vs. father of his people" BS, Canada is sending someone to the funeral of an EXTREMELY corrupt dictator who has kept more than a billion dollars from his people. As a supposed world leader in civil rights, how can our country support a "government" that keeps it's own people in abject poverty while living high on the donations sent to help them.

 

[anon1]

Apparently they saw him as someone who was only concerned with his own grip on power and money.

You mean a politician?

 

[hornyharry]

I also find it disgusting that Canada is sending an official representative to the funeral. Ignoring the political "terrorist vs. father of his people" BS, Canada is sending someone to the funeral of an EXTREMELY corrupt dictator who has kept more than a billion dollars from his people. As a supposed world leader in civil rights, how can our country support a "government" that keeps it's own people in abject poverty while living high on the donations sent to help them.

Canada has for years "supported" these governments in various ways. You name it and we, Canada, have given way too many things, i.e. foreign aid - money, food, etc., to way too many countries over the years. In some instances the money and food went to the dictator in the country to feed and arm their armies while the citizens do without...lord knows a well fed and equiped army makes it much easier to keep the poor, starving masses at bay.

IMHO if we as Canadians stood up and made our government answerable to questionable "donations" -- and they are donations because we never see any return on our "loans"--- then possibly our own economy wouldn't be in the state it is. Hell maybe our taxes would be lowered due to the lack of stupidity in our government. SURE!!!! We are talking about a government that pays our representatives to not work, travel the world at our expense, spend like there is no tommorrow on foreign aid while gouging us the taxpayers, and then to top it all off....maintain our own military that is laughable to say the least.

We have starving people here that are ignored but god help us if we do not give some African nation 10 million dollars so they can dig a few wells and then use the rest for the military. It is pretty sad when Switerland has a better navy/military then we do...at least their boats float, their helicopters hover, and their....well you get the idea.

I am a proud Canadian but I think we should not be throwing stones as we ourselves live in a glass house.

 

[scouser1]

.The second thing they must do is renounce any alliances on the American left. Those sitting in ivory towers at northeast universities have inflicted far more damage than the IDF. If "palestinians" wish to attain statehood they must refuse to be manipulated as pawns of the left. [/B][/QUOTE]


oh how about the Israeli right wing allying itself with the American evangelical right who if you read their beliefs would only be using them for their version of the end of the world/Amargeddon scenario, and to tick off some of the more die hard Israel can do no wrong types here, anyone notice the red and white maple leaf being carried by the crowd in the funeral procession for Arafat hmmm

 

[sarasota]

I guess you seem to overlook Qana and Sabra/Chatilla - couresy of Ariel Sharon, an operation specifically targeting women, children and old people.

Sharon has killed more than 20x as many civilians as Arafat and co have - just to make you aware of the facts.

I appreciate your posts C1.

I am no expert, but from the bits and blurbs I read, you truly add educated and insightful information to these threads.