Covid-19 most likely came from a lab leak,,,,,,,,,duh

[jcpro]

France Warned US in 2015 About China’s Wuhan Lab, Investigator Says

French intelligence officials said in 2015 China cut back on agreed collaboration at the Wuhan lab, a former State Department official says.

www.dailysignal.com

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

To me, an ideologue is not interested in finding the truth. They are firmly on a political path and the objective is all that matters

You just nailed the lab leak deniers perfectly

 

[WyattEarp]

It's apologist to acknowledge that China will reject any international oversite on purely philosophical grounds? Okay then.

I do not agree with you that the Chinese are operating entirely on philosophical grounds. It doesn't take any stretch to make a case that the Wuhan Lab is off-limits due to secretive research. If you want to argue that the Chinese government is as open and transparent as Western governments, be my guest.

This line of argument is a black hole for you. I always make the case that foreign policy is a very slippery and messy slope where accommodations are being made every day and are very fluid. There's no black and white in foreign policy unless someone attacks you directly.

 

[WyattEarp]

It could be. But the outbreak pattern being centred around a market 30 km away from the lab makes it less likely.

Do you know that the FBI (and CIA) have access to satellite photos of Wuhan area hospitals in late 2019/early 2020? They know there was increased activity at the hospitals. They can see it.

I think you know where I am going with this. The U.S. intelligence agencies can determine where the center of the outbreak was with some degree of accuracy. They do not have to rely on China's self-reported evidence.

So the FBI has this information and it is very possible U.S. health agencies do not.
CIA? Still silent on the matter.

 

[Leimonis]

wait so covid actually exists? I thought it was made up by Marxists Democrats?

 

[WyattEarp]

wait so covid actually exists? I thought it was made up by Marxists Democrats?

I guess when life makes you Leimonis, you make Leimonade.

 

[WyattEarp]

Yep, thousands of scientists faking their research just to make Trump's unsupported blathering sound rational.

p.s. Weren't people complaining about making this political?

I think they are disturbed (and rightly so) that the government bureaucracies and the media went out of their way to gaslight people in 2020 who felt the wet market theory was too lazy and convenient.

 

[Knuckle Ball]

Fair enough. But now the White House is saying there is no consensus on the origins of the virus. That's a long, long way from the gaslighting that occurred of anyone who uttered "lab leak" in 2020. This WSJ headline below seems fair based on the quotes.

So…are you interested in the origin of the virus? Or are you just made because people said mean things to you in 2020?

 

[WyattEarp]

So…are you interested in the origin of the virus? Or are you just made because people said mean things to you in 2020?

You're making excellent points. It's great to have you here.

 

[Knuckle Ball]

You're making excellent points. It's great to have you here.

Thanks but you still haven’t answered the question: Do you actually care about the origin of the virus or are you just looking for vindication over your hurt feelings about people being mean to you over the lab leak theory?

Both issues are important. I don’t think we will ever get to the bottom of the covid origin question but I am sure all of the terb members, regardless of political beliefs or affiliations, would be more than happy to organize a pity party for you at a local strip club. I’ll even pick up your bar tab (but you will have to pay for your own lap dances).

 

[WyattEarp]

Thanks but you still haven’t answered the question: Do you actually care about the origin of the virus or are you just looking for vindication over your hurt feelings about people being mean to you over the lab leak theory?

Both issues are important. I don’t think we will ever get to the bottom of the covid origin question but I am sure all of the terb members, regardless of political beliefs or affiliations, would be more than happy to organize a pity party for you at a local strip club. I’ll even pick up your bar tab (but you will have to pay for your own lap dances).

KB, it's okay to strongly challenge people's opinions and beliefs. It's not okay to try to veil ad hominem attacks as thoughtful discourse. I have no idea where you're trying to go with any of this.

The only takeaway I got was you now are saying is we will never get to the bottom of the COVID question. Those of us who have pointed out that that government agencies and much of the media misrepresented the information in 2020 are now to be mocked and harassed as angry and overly-sensitive?

Knuckle Ball, there are people on this thread still arguing vehemently that the virus originated at the Wuhan wet market.

 

[Knuckle Ball]

KB, it's okay to strongly challenge people's opinions and beliefs. It's not okay to try to veil ad hominem attacks as thoughtful discourse. I have no idea where you're trying to go with any of this.

The only takeaway I got was you now are saying is we will never get to the bottom of the COVID question. Those of us who have pointed out that that government agencies and much of the media misrepresented the information in 2020 are now to be mocked and harassed as angry and overly-sensitive?

Knuckle Ball, there are people on this thread still arguing vehemently that the virus originated at the Wuhan wet market.

And you are arguing vehemently that it was a lab leak…but why? Why do you keep claiming that you were “gaslighted?” Why are you so upset about the way people who supported the lab leak theory in 2020 were treated? Those things have nothing to do with the cause of covid.

Again, it appears that you are not particularly interested in the cause of covid but rather are seeking some sort of vindication to soothe your hurt feelings from 2020.

 

[WyattEarp]

And you are arguing vehemently that it was a lab leak…but why? Why do you keep claiming that you were “gaslighted?” Why are you so upset about the way people who supported the lab leak theory in 2020 were treated? Those things have nothing to do with the cause of covid.

Again, it appears that you are not particularly interested in the cause of covid but rather are seeking some sort of vindication to soothe your hurt feelings from 2020.

I believe we need to challenge the Chinese on this matter. I think they mishandled containing the virus initially and we should at least consider they brought it into the human population whether it was accidental or not. This possibility should have never been dismissed in 2020.

I don't give a shit about Trump, Fox News and expansive conspiracy theories. Other media outlets such as the Wall Street Journal were questioning the veracity of the wet market theory. However, I don't want my information chewed up and fed to me by government agencies or much of the media. They could have investigated this harder and been honest, but decided it wasn't something we needed to consider so they fed us misinformation.

Whether or not you know it or admit it, you are defending a perverse status quo. If the government and their cooperating media thinks we need to be misdirected, it's okay so long as they think they have good reason. You are defending this media conduct.

You made a mistake by picking me out of all the members on this thread. Yeah, I have no problem challenging you and keeping it civil. Valcazar and I seem to have good conversations because neither of us dig into some ideological redoubt. If you think mocking people and trying to find new angles to discredit them is your modus operandi, you will have to do better........much better.

These are my actual views:

My personal view was that no one will ever know with any certainty either way especially if the Chinese won't cooperate with U.N. and other international agencies.

........I don't get too excited about the War on the COVID Response particularly when it comes to conservative media trying to jack people up. People on the Left and Right want certainty in all things. COVID was random chaos. The first truly global pandemic in over 100 years. Governments had to fly by the seat of their pants. Every country managed it a little bit different. I genuinely believe government agencies did the best they could during difficult and fast-moving events.

You are essentially saying we will never know because the Chinese will never cooperate. That really should be the conclusion of this thread.

 

[basketcase]

Thats exactly what he said. It would have to be proof, what else could it be.
...

Gee. When people said otherwise, you complained they were political pawns pushing an agenda but when a Trump appointee says something you like, it must be proof. I'm sure you believe that Trump had proof when he made his claims even though no intelligence agencies supported him at the time.

And if the FBI has that proof, why do none of the other intelligence agencies, those with a direct mandate to either investigate biological weapons or investigate foreign countries have that proof?

 

[basketcase]

Do you know that the FBI (and CIA) have access to satellite photos of Wuhan area hospitals in late 2019/early 2020? They know there was increased activity at the hospitals. They can see it.

I think you know where I am going with this. The U.S. intelligence agencies can determine where the center of the outbreak was with some degree of accuracy. They do not have to rely on China's self-reported evidence.

So the FBI has this information and it is very possible U.S. health agencies do not.
CIA? Still silent on the matter.

How many US intelligence agencies disagree with them?

Sorry but you're trying to posit there is proof of a lab leak while also saying that we don't have the information to make that claim. It's amusing but not very productive.

I think they are disturbed (and rightly so) that the government bureaucracies and the media went out of their way to gaslight people in 2020 who felt the wet market theory was too lazy and convenient.

Or too reasonable based on all past research about spread of contagious diseases.



Claims about me and others not being interested in the origins are quite bullshit. I'd be quite interested if you provided proof of bigfoot but knowing that evidence is next to impossible to find, I'm not going to fill the internet with my 'research' on it. Most rational people know that Chinese government has never been transparent with the international community and know that there will never be decisive evidence of the cause. That's why much of the scientific community has supported the common occurrence of zoonotic transfer over the possibility that a lab leak in a highly secure facility caused an outbreak 30 km away in a different part of a huge city. As I said, I'm open to evidence but in the lack of evidence, I'll back the more scientifically plausible conclusion.

 

[basketcase]

Fair enough. But now the White House is saying there is no consensus on the origins of the virus. That's a long, long way from the gaslighting that occurred of anyone who uttered "lab leak" in 2020. This WSJ headline below seems fair based on the quotes.
...

As I said, you admit there is a lack of consensus and a lack of evidence yet you still demand that we accept the idea that it was a leak.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

Gee. When people said otherwise, you complained they were political pawns pushing an agenda but when a Trump appointee says something you like, it must be proof. I'm sure you believe that Trump had proof when he made his claims even though no intelligence agencies supported him at the time

Thats not true. Trump claimed he had intel it was a lab leak.
How else would he have known??

And if the FBI has that proof, why do none of the other intelligence agencies, those with a direct mandate to either investigate biological weapons or investigate foreign countries have that proof?

Just because they havent commented yet doesnt mean they arent investigating.

You are all over the place with your futile arguments

 

[WyattEarp]

How many US intelligence agencies disagree with them?

Sorry but you're trying to posit there is proof of a lab leak while also saying that we don't have the information to make that claim. It's amusing but not very productive.

I'm not trying to convince anyone I know the origination of the virus. I was merely countering your claim that the virus outbreak centered around the wet market. Where does that "evidence" come from counselor?

I just thought through your declaration that the outbreak centered around the wet market. I have read the U.S. satellite photos showed increased activity around Wuhan hospitals beginning in late 2019. Do you disagree that the U.S. intelligence agencies might be able to get an idea where the general area of where the virus originated from hospital activity? I believe you said the Wuhan Labs were 30 km away from the wet market. It would seem in a city of about 10 million different hospitals would service city areas 30 km apart.

 

[WyattEarp]

And if the FBI has that proof, why do none of the other intelligence agencies, those with a direct mandate to either investigate biological weapons or investigate foreign countries have that proof?

I think you are out over your skis. The FBI and CIA are the preeminent U.S. intelligence gathering agencies. The other intelligence agencies rely on their investigatory work.

It's easy to think the FBI is is only domestic, but they have a significant foreign mandate in protecting the United States. The clear difference is the CIA has no law enforcement arm and is prohibited from collecting information on U.S. citizens, resident aliens, legal immigrants, and U.S. corporations.

As has been pointed out, the CIA is silent on the matter. If you are trying to diminish the FBI's importance, that's probably not a good path.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

As has been pointed out, the CIA is silent on the matter. If you are trying to diminish the FBI, that's probably not a good path

I'm getting very close to putting this clown on ignore