Breaking: Mayor Tory Steps Down.

[Anbarandy]

Isn't amazing that The Eaton Center and surrounding business exist even with "oppressive" paid parking? How can there be a Canadian Tire, Best Buy and Cineplex at Bay and Dundas, an Ikea at Yonge and College, a giant Loblaws at Maple Leaf Gardens, and bars, restaurants, hotels, cultural and spots venues downtown? How is it that hundreds of thousands came downtown for the Raptors celebration parade a few years ago? I'm sure that more than a few that came from the 905. Some might have even been crazy enough to drive in and pay for parking. It should be obvious that people work, live and play downtown. Some people want to be downtown even with paid parking.

I get it that many 905'ers won't come downtown to go to stores they already have. On the other hand, they will come for sports games, shows, concerts, cultural events. They are likely going to restaurants and bars before and after those events too.



Maybe think about why there are usually more homeless in cities versus the suburbs. This problem isn't unique to Toronto BTW. If you're a pandhandler, do you spend your time downtown where there are thousands of people on the street that might be willing to give you a few bucks? Or in Milton where you're unlikely to see a person on the street?

If someone is homeless then how are they going to get to these sububrban homeless shelters you propose? Perhaps we should get the people of Oakville or Mississauga to pay for the shelter and the travel costs needed to ship the homeless to them? How well do you think that will go over?

Touche!

 

[Frankfooter]

My office overlooks the Gardiner near Jarvis and there's a clear difference in traffic on the Western vs Eastern half. I also think reubilding that section is a big waste of money. On the other hand, the city needs to proceed carefully for how it's going to manage Southbound traffic on the DVP or Eastbound traffic on the Gardiner East of Jarvis. Sadly, I don't have much confidence in the city to manage this well because of dumb decisions in the path.

The Queens Quay re-alignment near Bathurst has to be the dumbest of them all. The streetcar tracks start in the middle and then move to the South side of the street. That made the street very confusing because the intersections are unique to that section. So the city had to install hundreds of extra road signs and signals to deal with that odd arrangement. I think a better plan would be to keep the streetcar tracks in the centre, but reduce the car lanes to one in each direction, which is what we have today. Or have the streetcar tracks be consistently on the South side.

Queens Quay is agreeably the worst redesign in the city, its a disaster for pedestrians, cyclists, cars and transit.

I don't know if there is a good solution for the Gardiner. Lakeshore is now a disaster of construction and way slower than it used to be. Losing the eastern chunk costs drivers some time with the Jarvis entrance being the first. But the crap that still falls off the Gardiner just gets bandaid solutions every few years as well. Ideally you'd tunnel under lakeshore as a replacement and turn the whole thing into a park. It'd cost a ton but would help that band of the city and its ever increasing condos cut off to the water by roads.

 

[Anbarandy]

I don't know if there is a good solution for the Gardiner. Lakeshore is now a disaster of construction and way slower than it used to be. Losing the eastern chunk costs drivers some time with the Jarvis entrance being the first. But the crap that still falls off the Gardiner just gets bandaid solutions every few years as well. Ideally you'd tunnel under lakeshore as a replacement and turn the whole thing into a park. It'd cost a ton but would help that band of the city and its ever increasing condos cut off to the water by roads.

There was and still is a solution for that eastern stretch of the Gardiner. I referred briefly to it in one of prior posts in this thread.

An expanded and multi-mode grand boulevard along Lakeshore; 1-way east and west Richmond and Adelaide E. would have saved $1.5billion compared to this ongoing disaster and would have only added 3 minutes to vehicle commute times during rush hours compared to the re-aligned section of the Gardiner that is envisioned.

It was proposed as 1 of 3 options at council a few years ago, but narrowly lost to Tory's +2billion debacle of moving it a few meters to the north. Inner suburban councilors would not countenance any infringement on vehicle driver's freedom. Tory went to the wall for this mess we have now and will have in the future. It has mostly, if not all to do with the former Lever Bros. land at DVP and Lakeshore. Something worth looking into, Tory's messianic zeal for the former Lever Bros. land.

 

[explorerzip]

I don't know if there is a good solution for the Gardiner. Lakeshore is now a disaster of construction and way slower than it used to be. Losing the eastern chunk costs drivers some time with the Jarvis entrance being the first. But the crap that still falls off the Gardiner just gets bandaid solutions every few years as well. Ideally you'd tunnel under lakeshore as a replacement and turn the whole thing into a park. It'd cost a ton but would help that band of the city and its ever increasing condos cut off to the water by roads.

I'm sure the city made a pretty penny in development charges for all those towers. At the same time, it was a big mistake to have so many of them next to the Gardiner and waterfront and all of them with lots of parking. There's no reason why those buildings need so much parking.

The city has hemmed itself in badly while not allowing any breathing room to better the transportation infrastructure in the area. I think the tunnel would be the only option to tame the traffic in that ara. Like you said though, it would be an immesely expensive and disruptive project to do that.We'd have to keep traffic moving on Lakeshore, Gardiner and the railway while tunneling at the same time. It would be Toronto's version of the Big Dig in Boston that went grossly over budget.

 

[explorerzip]

An expanded and multi-mode grand boulevard along Lakeshore; 1-way east and west Richmond and Adelaide E. would have saved $1.5billion compared to this ongoing disaster and would have only added 3 minutes to vehicle commute times during rush hours compared to the re-aligned section of the Gardiner that is envisioned.\

Sadly, the city's track record for "grand boulevards" is lousy at best. Lakeshore between the CNE grounds and Windermere is a huge missed opportunity. There's no reason for the giant and unused grass medians, huge parking lots and no transit at all. Similar story with University.

 

[Frankfooter]

There was and still is a solution for that eastern stretch of the Gardiner. I referred briefly to it in one of prior posts in this thread.

An expanded and multi-mode grand boulevard along Lakeshore; 1-way east and west Richmond and Adelaide E. would have saved $1.5billion compared to this ongoing disaster and would have only added 3 minutes to vehicle commute times during rush hours compared to the re-aligned section of the Gardiner that is envisioned.

It was proposed as 1 of 3 options at council a few years ago, but narrowly lost to Tory's +2billion debacle of moving it a few meters to the north. Inner suburban councilors would not countenance any infringement on vehicle driver's freedom. Tory went to the wall for this mess we have now and will have in the future. It has mostly, if not all to do with the former Lever Bros. land at DVP and Lakeshore. Something worth looking into, Tory's messianic zeal for the former Lever Bros. land.

I'd forgotten about the alternate plans, I'll have to go back and check them.
I'm sure you're right.

 

[Anbarandy]

Sadly, the city's track record for "grand boulevards" is lousy at best. Lakeshore between the CNE grounds and Windermere is a huge missed opportunity. There's no reason for the giant and unused grass medians, huge parking lots and no transit at all. Similar story with University.

1) Lakeshore Blvd W. was never envisioned to be nor planned as a "grand blvd". Before the QEW/Gardiner W. was planned and built it was the western motorway/gateway to Toronto and not to destination points from the Humber River to just before the CNE.

2) That stretch of Lakeshore Blvd. W. that your referenced is flanked by legally protected parkland to the south and rail tracks to the north. The "huge islands" and grassy medians that you reference are only on a portion of that stretch, from just west of the Humber River to Palais Royale.

3) So based upon 1) and 2) above, there are no destination points prior to the CNE that a grand blvd with higher mode transit could financially serve and survive. The Queensway/Queen and King St streetcars have been situated for decades to service the transit needs of the dense population areas surrounding their transit corridors. There is not anywhere near any type of population down there along Lakeshore, nor year round destination points from the Humber River till just west of Stadium Rd. that would justify a grand blvd.

 

[bestman007]

Finally, John Tory, the wolf in sheep skin mayor is gone today. He put out a public image of a do no harm mayor. And he dared to say in today’s speech that he managed to move the city forward. But if we look deep down his performance, there is huge city budget deficit, lots of unused trucks sitting idle, paying city employees free via hats, Cross town LRT not done and huge cost overrun, transit safety down the hill, housing is a mess, homeless citizens die in the cold, warming centres not open 24/7. Yet he spent taxpayer $$ for foreign travels and have sex with a staff less than half of his age.

let’s elect a capable person to take his place to move the city in the right direction.

CP

Look at the Org Charts since Tory came to power!!!

The number of director positions (earning between $175,000-$200,000) easily doubled.

He also was responsible for creating and moving over a bunch of City staff with salary increases of $50 - $100k to a real estate agency called CreateTO. Those salaries are not disclosed on the Sunshine List, and as time goes by I suspect that we will find out that there were a lot of shady land transactions happening away from the public eye.

 

[explorerzip]

1) Lakeshore Blvd W. was never envisioned to be nor planned as a "grand blvd". Before the QEW/Gardiner W. was planned and built it was the western motorway/gateway to Toronto and not to destination points from the Humber River to just before the CNE.

2) That stretch of Lakeshore Blvd. W. that your referenced is flanked by legally protected parkland to the south and rail tracks to the north. The "huge islands" and grassy medians that you reference are only on a portion of that stretch, from just west of the Humber River to Palais Royale.

3) So based upon 1) and 2) above, there are points prior to the CNE for a grand blvd with higher mode transit could financially serve and survive. The Queensway/Queen and King St streetcars have been situated for decades to service the transit needs of the dense population areas surrounding their transit corridors. There is not anywhere near any type of population down there along Lakeshore, nor year round destination points from the Humber River till just west of Stadium Rd. that would justify a grand blvd.

1) This is exactly my point. There are few destination points along that stretch of Lakeshore W other than the pool, Palais Royale and Boulevard Club.

2) I am aware of the parkland to the south and the Gardiner / railway to the north because I can use Google. I didn't know about the legaly status of the parkland though. I think you would agree that the grassy medians are quite wasteful. Same for the multiple large parking lots in the area. The medians make the drive a bit more pleasant, but they are unusable for people. I'm sure the city spends a pretty penny to maintain the greenery that nobody can get close to. That's also why I mentioned University where we have nice green medians that no one (other than the homess) wants anything to do with.

That area is very car-centric with high speeds and multiple large parking lots. You can technically walk to the watefront if you live near The Queensway, but that is a dismal walk across 8 lanes of fast moving traffic and a median.

 

[Frankfooter]

1) Lakeshore Blvd W. was never envisioned to be nor planned as a "grand blvd". Before the QEW/Gardiner W. was planned and built it was the western motorway/gateway to Toronto and not to destination points from the Humber River to just before the CNE.

2) That stretch of Lakeshore Blvd. W. that your referenced is flanked by legally protected parkland to the south and rail tracks to the north. The "huge islands" and grassy medians that you reference are only on a portion of that stretch, from just west of the Humber River to Palais Royale.

3) So based upon 1) and 2) above, there are points prior to the CNE for a grand blvd with higher mode transit could financially serve and survive. The Queensway/Queen and King St streetcars have been situated for decades to service the transit needs of the dense population areas surrounding their transit corridors. There is not anywhere near any type of population down there along Lakeshore, nor year round destination points from the Humber River till just west of Stadium Rd. that would justify a grand blvd.

You mean the area that is now the Bentway?
The Gardiner is north of Lakeshore there, you could expand some but you'd need to take out some of the park from Windemere to the CNE. Lakeshore could merge into the mess of Front as a boulevard up until Bathurst but then its under th Gardiner and there isn't land on either side.

But yes, it would still bottleneck as soon as it passed Bathurst/Spadina.

 

[explorerzip]

You mean the area that is now the Bentway?
The Gardiner is north of Lakeshore there, you could expand some but you'd need to take out some of the park from Windemere to the CNE. Lakeshore could merge into the mess of Front as a boulevard up until Bathurst but then its under th Gardiner and there isn't land on either side.

But yes, it would still bottleneck as soon as it passed Bathurst/Spadina.

The Bentway is beneath the Gardiner and just south of the Fort York site. There's no room to develop anything in that small space. Speaking of Fort York, it is sad that it's always been tucked away in a corner almost out of view.

I was talking about Lakeshore bounded by Windermere in the West to about Jameson to the East, which has the grassy medians that people can't really access nor would they want to with cars zipping by on both sides.

 

[chrispalen]

Look at the Org Charts since Tory came to power!!!

The number of director positions (earning between $175,000-$200,000) easily doubled.

He also was responsible for creating and moving over a bunch of City staff with salary increases of $50 - $100k to a real estate agency called CreateTO. Those salaries are not disclosed on the Sunshine List, and as time goes by I suspect that we will find out that there were a lot of shady land transactions happening away from the public eye.

Tory was probably paid over $300K a year. The police chief makes that much too.
No wonder our tax bill is so high and keeps rising.
So glad this crooked mayor is gone.

CP

 

[Dutch Oven]

1) I am talking about that stretch of the Gardiner, from Jarvis St. to the DVP. That elevated stretch of the Gardiner does not move hundreds of thousands of commuters. I live right by the lake, right near the Gardiner. I see, I experience, I read, I follow - Toronto. You do not live here at all, you live in exurbia and only travel to Toronto via personal vehicle. U come in, do your shit and get out. That's the extent of your intimate knowledge of Toronto.

I don't share personal information on TERB, but if you were right, that would mean I have lot more driving experience on the Gardiner than you do, and a much better guage on the traffic levels. I can tell you from experience that the downtown sections of the Gardiner move poorly (if at all) throughout the entire working day (7:00 am to 7 pm) with the possible exception of noon until 2:00 pm. If I were to generalize from your circumstances, I would conclude you probably don't even own a car, as a large number of downtown denizens don't.

And the thing about roads is that they form part of a network. They take you from here to there. You can't really analyze the utility of a small segment of a road system in isolation. You'd have to analyze the impact of closing a stretch of road on the network as a whole. Traffic across the core is already unacceptably bad. Closing ANY stretch of the Gardiner would only make it worse, both on the Gardiner and on the alternate routes.

2) If you really believe successful retail stores/centers/malls offer free parking then that is even more proof that you just are so unaware. The costs of that parking is passed on to customers in the price customers pay for goods and services.

Yes, businesses must cover their overhead by the revenue they bring in, and so, in that way, they do indirectly "charge for parking". However, they are able to spread that overhead over so many customers that the parking charges "transferred" to clients in the form of pricing is tiny, certainly compared to street rate parking in Toronto? Why? Because the city has no other way to defray its overhead costs (no profit on the sale of goods). Therefore, the City is an inefficient manager and vendor of parking space compared to any vendor. The analysis you offer about the economics of businesses is superficial.

3) Businesses will leave! Retail will close! The city will be gutted! People will lose jobs! The price of everything will go up! Fear mongering, all of it and none of it true. Raising the minimum wage did not produce the calamity that the business community and conservative fucks warned. The vehicle tax did not lead to disaster. The Toronto Land Transfer Tax did not cause property sales to plummet as the RE industry keeps warning about. Tax hikes did not lead to businesses taking a hike. I'll tell you what causes calamity, it is the unaffordability caused by unchecked free enterprise/greed.

Business HAVE left. Retail is at a low ebb in the city. Drive around. Have a look at the amount of available retail space. Prices have gone up, substantially. You seem to be unaware of your surroundings. Just how much time are you spending cooped up in your downtown chicken coop in the sky?

4) Get back to me, when you have a handle on Toronto because to tell you the truth it is a waste of time debating with someone who is a foreigner to Toronto.

The people who interact with Toronto to do business have a much better bead on what they would do if conditions were changed than people who don't. Customers always have a more accurate take on their customer experience that some small holding stockholder of the company ever does.

However, the big point you seem to be missing is that the quality of life of Torontonians like yourself depends on doing a substantial amount of business with people and businesses in neighbouring communities, so unless you want the city to decay, and your lifestyle with it, you should support whatever it will take to keep customers and businesses choosing to come into the city. Your residential tax rates are so low because commericial tax rates subsidize them.

 

[Dutch Oven]

Isn't amazing that The Eaton Center and surrounding business exist even with "oppressive" paid parking? How can there be a Canadian Tire, Best Buy and Cineplex at Bay and Dundas, an Ikea at Yonge and College, a giant Loblaws at Maple Leaf Gardens, and bars, restaurants, hotels, cultural and spots venues downtown? How is it that hundreds of thousands came downtown for the Raptors celebration parade a few years ago? I'm sure that more than a few that came from the 905. Some might have even been crazy enough to drive in and pay for parking. It should be obvious that people work, live and play downtown. Some people want to be downtown even with paid parking.

I get it that many 905'ers won't come downtown to go to stores they already have. On the other hand, they will come for sports games, shows, concerts, cultural events. They are likely going to restaurants and bars before and after those events too.

The Eaton Centre is not an outlet mall. It is home to several high markup retail busineses. Its customers are not as price sensitive as those of most businesses. It it also well served by the city's highly subsidized public transit system. Finally, I doubt you are aware that a substantial number of Eaton Centre parking spaces are rented by tenants in the adjoining Cadillac Fairview office tower, as well as other neighbouring businesses. In short, the Eaton Centre doesn't have to offer free parking for reasons unique to its location and business model. I could take you through the same analysis on your other examples, but I think you can connect the dots for yourself.

It's certainly true that Toronto has the ability to host sports and entertainment events that smaller centers cannot; however, those events still need to draw people from outside the City at an affordable cost, or they would lose money. That's a big reason why the GO Transit system runs on weekends and holidays! (And why it PAYS to continually expand it)

Maybe think about why there are usually more homeless in cities versus the suburbs. This problem isn't unique to Toronto BTW. If you're a pandhandler, do you spend your time downtown where there are thousands of people on the street that might be willing to give you a few bucks? Or in Milton where you're unlikely to see a person on the street?

If someone is homeless then how are they going to get to these sububrban homeless shelters you propose? Perhaps we should get the people of Oakville or Mississauga to pay for the shelter and the travel costs needed to ship the homeless to them? How well do you think that will go over?

1. I have no interest in or inclination to worry about the health of the panhandling business. We're talking about providing free/low cost housing to people who need it in order to reenter society. We are not talking about how to sustain panhandling, or public drug abuse, or crime as a way of life. My point is that there are low skill jobs outside of Toronto where employers are going begging (pun intended) and its a lot cheaper to build subsidized housing in those communities. I'm sure the pay for these unskilled jobs is better than panhandling pays, and may even be easier work, but more importantly, is PRODUCTIVE work that brings people back into the mainstream of society.

2. Buses are cheap. Homeless people have little or no belongings to transport. Bussing them to their new homes would be cost effective. I don't propose to have them commute into Toronto each day to resume panhanding. These free bus rides are one way.

 

[Anbarandy]

I don't share personal information on TERB, but if you were right, that would mean I have lot more driving experience on the Gardiner than you do, and a much better guage on the traffic levels. I can tell you from experience that the downtown sections of the Gardiner move poorly (if at all) throughout the entire working day (7:00 am to 7 pm) with the possible exception of noon until 2:00 pm. If I were to generalize from your circumstances, I would conclude you probably don't even own a car, as a large number of downtown denizens don't.

And the thing about roads is that they form part of a network. They take you from here to there. You can't really analyze the utility of a small segment of a road system in isolation. You'd have to analyze the impact of closing a stretch of road on the network as a whole. Traffic across the core is already unacceptably bad. Closing ANY stretch of the Gardiner would only make it worse, both on the Gardiner and on the alternate routes.



Yes, businesses must cover their overhead by the revenue they bring in, and so, in that way, they do indirectly "charge for parking". However, they are able to spread that overhead over so many customers that the parking charges "transferred" to clients in the form of pricing is tiny, certainly compared to street rate parking in Toronto? Why? Because the city has no other way to defray its overhead costs (no profit on the sale of goods). Therefore, the City is an inefficient manager and vendor of parking space compared to any vendor. The analysis you offer about the economics of businesses is superficial.



Business HAVE left. Retail is at a low ebb in the city. Drive around. Have a look at the amount of available retail space. Prices have gone up, substantially. You seem to be unaware of your surroundings. Just how much time are you spending cooped up in your downtown chicken coop in the sky?


The people who interact with Toronto to do business have a much better bead on what they would do if conditions were changed than people who don't. Customers always have a more accurate take on their customer experience that some small holding stockholder of the company ever does.

However, the big point you seem to be missing is that the quality of life of Torontonians like yourself depends on doing a substantial amount of business with people and businesses in neighbouring communities, so unless you want the city to decay, and your lifestyle with it, you should support whatever it will take to keep customers and businesses choosing to come into the city. Your residential tax rates are so low because commericial tax rates subsidize them.

A Dodge Charger just pulled up. The door opens up from inside. "Step in", a lone voice implores for inside the vehicle.

 

[Dutch Oven]

A Dodge Charger just pulled up. The door opens up from inside. "Step in", a lone voice implores for inside the vehicle.

If only there had been an alternate route for that Charger out of the congestion of the city core that day. Would there even be a reason to reference it today?

 

[glamphotographer]

1) I am talking about that stretch of the Gardiner, from Jarvis St. to the DVP. That elevated stretch of the Gardiner does not move hundreds of thousands of commuters. I live right by the lake, right near the Gardiner. I see, I experience, I read, I follow - Toronto. You do not live here at all, you live in exurbia and only travel to Toronto via personal vehicle. U come in, do your shit and get out. That's the extent of your intimate knowledge of Toronto.

2) If you really believe successful retail stores/centers/malls offer free parking then that is even more proof that you just are so unaware. The costs of that parking is passed on to customers in the price customers pay for goods and services.

3) Businesses will leave! Retail will close! The city will be gutted! People will lose jobs! The price of everything will go up! Fear mongering, all of it and none of it true. Raising the minimum wage did not produce the calamity that the business community and conservative fucks warned. The vehicle tax did not lead to disaster. The Toronto Land Transfer Tax did not cause property sales to plummet as the RE industry keeps warning about. Tax hikes did not lead to businesses taking a hike. I'll tell you what causes calamity, it is the unaffordability caused by unchecked free enterprise/greed.

4) Get back to me, when you have a handle on Toronto because to tell you the truth it is a waste of time debating with someone who is a foreigner to Toronto.

Induced demand, building more highways only means more car and more traffic jams. The best way to move the mass amount of people is public transportation. Amsterdam got it right.

 

[curr3n_c1000]

Terb: "John Tory was an excellent Mayor"
Also Terb: "Toronto is unsafe, expensive, has horrible traffic, disintegrating roads, the worst transit system, overpopulated, weak economically, lack jobs, no housing, too many bums/panhandlers/drug addicts and has no direction."

 

[Frankfooter]

I wonder if we could elect a new, left and strong mayor to change the Gardiner plan.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/gardiner-east-costs-staff-1.6752786

 

[Dutch Oven]

Terb: "John Tory was an excellent Mayor"
Also Terb: "Toronto is unsafe, expensive, has horrible traffic, disintegrating roads, the worst transit system, overpopulated, weak economically, lack jobs, no housing, too many bums/panhandlers/drug addicts and has no direction."

Other Terb: John Tory was a lousy mayor, just much better than the alternatives who are currently talking about running.