Blue Jays 2009

[Kilgore Trout]

Nice major league debut today by Brett Cecil
6.0 IP, 6 Hits, 1 ER , 0 Walks, 1.00 WHIP, 1.50 ERA
It's so great to get a call up who doesn't walk batters. That was the sin that did David Purcey in.
Anyway, Jays win 10 -6.

Since Halladay last pitched Friday night the rest of the pitching staff has managed to win 3 of 4 games. Pretty good considering all the injuries.

Blue Jays now lead the major leagues in average, runs scored, and hits. It's a huge difference to have Adam Lind in there at DH instead of Frank Thomas for much of prior two seasons.

 

[Toke]

ever heard of WAMCO ????

Carter hit 3rd in 1991 and 1992.

White-Alomar-Carter-Gruber (also Winfield 4th in 1992)

Carter hit 4th in 1993 and 1994 (possibly beyond, those are the only seasons I checked).

White-Alomar-Molitor-Carter-Olerud (also Henderson-White-Alomar-Carter)

What he said.

 

[teassoc]

Nice major league debut today by Brett Cecil
6.0 IP, 6 Hits, 1 ER , 0 Walks, 1.00 WHIP, 1.50 ERA
It's so great to get a call up who doesn't walk batters. That was the sin that did David Purcey in.
Anyway, Jays win 10 -6.

Since Halladay last pitched Friday night the rest of the pitching staff has managed to win 3 of 4 games. Pretty good considering all the injuries.

Blue Jays now lead the major leagues in average, runs scored, and hits. It's a huge difference to have Adam Lind in there at DH instead of Frank Thomas for much of prior two seasons.

Agreed. Lind got 5 rbi's - just wonderful and Snider is rediscovering some form.

What a lovely turn round in the 7th.

Jays now don't have the bullpen everyone thought they had.

Don't know how Accardo is doing but maybe he would be stronger than League, right now and be an additional closer?

 

[plyrs99]

i think comparing vernon wells to joe carter is a poor comparison. joe carter was a model of consistency, and was feared/respected when he came to the plate. joe carter also always had a smile on his face, and played with enthusiasm. yes, he was not stellar with the glove, but he didn't always need to be with devon white patrolling centerfield.

vernon wells always looks like he has no passion, like he does not care. sure, he had that great year in guess what...his contract year, what a surprise. he gets that huge deal from uncle ted, and reverts back to a middle of the road player with middle of the road statistics, that is when he is healhty enough to play.

joe carter also has two world series rings, and hit a walk-off homer to win one of those world series, in case you forgot.

vernon wells has done.......



SQUAT!

do not get me wrong, i do like vernon wells, just don't think he is worth anywhere near what he gets paid, or that he is anywhere near comparable to joe carter.

Plyrs99

 

[salsamarc]

i think comparing vernon wells to joe carter is a poor comparison. joe carter was a model of consistency, and was feared/respected when he came to the plate. joe carter also always had a smile on his face, and played with enthusiasm. yes, he was not stellar with the glove, but he didn't always need to be with devon white patrolling centerfield.

vernon wells always looks like he has no passion, like he does not care. sure, he had that great year in guess what...his contract year, what a surprise. he gets that huge deal from uncle ted, and reverts back to a middle of the road player with middle of the road statistics, that is when he is healhty enough to play.

joe carter also has two world series rings, and hit a walk-off homer to win one of those world series, in case you forgot.

vernon wells has done.......



SQUAT!

do not get me wrong, i do like vernon wells, just don't think he is worth anywhere near what he gets paid, or that he is anywhere near comparable to joe carter.

Plyrs99

what he said

 

[pdson2]

Cito Gaston is a joke !
How many games did he slip away so far this season ?
Brandon League like to show off his tattoos more than he win the game !
Shawn Camp pitched a baseball like a disable handicapped !
Where is Jeremy Accardo ?
Blue Jays is very very very lucky to win a wild card this season !
Lyle Overbay and Travis Snider were very very struggling !
They need a offensive 1st baseman and left-fielder now !!!!!

Holy shit some people are hard to please. Cito Gaston is the one who has led them to a record of 9 games over 500 with a team that was expected to do squat this year

 

[salsamarc]

Holy shit some people are hard to please. Cito Gaston is the one who has led them to a record of 9 games over 500 with a team that was expected to do squat this year

agreed, maybe he thinks John Gibbons could do a much better job

if Gibbons were here do you think Snyder and/or Lind would be?

 

[Mr. Lucky]

I have not gone to a jays game in a while but I will soon enough

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Scott Richmond named AL Rookie of the Month for April, going 3-0 with a 2.70 ERA in April.
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...lue-jays-richmond-al-rookie-of-the-month.aspx

If there was a coach of the month I'd give it to Brad Arnsberg, Jays pitching coach, who's done a nice job getting rookies like Scott Richmond, Ricky Romero, Brett Cecil etc ready for pithcing at MLB level.
Hope the Jays sign him to a 3 year extension.

 

[teassoc]

Scott Richmond named AL Rookie of the Month for April, going 3-0 with a 2.70 ERA in April.
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...lue-jays-richmond-al-rookie-of-the-month.aspx

If there was a coach of the month I'd give it to Brad Arnsberg, Jays pitching coach, who's done a nice job getting rookies like Scott Richmond, Ricky Romero, Brett Cecil etc ready for pithcing at MLB level.
Hope the Jays sign him to a 3 year extension.

Certainly.

They need now to worry about the bullpen.

 

[salsamarc]

If there was a coach of the month I'd give it to Brad Arnsberg, Jays pitching coach, who's done a nice job getting rookies like Scott Richmond, Ricky Romero, Brett Cecil etc ready for pithcing at MLB level.
Hope the Jays sign him to a 3 year extension.

agreed, awesome job the coaches have been doing all around

 

[maurice93]

joe carter was a model of consistency, and was feared/respected when he came to the plate. joe carter also always had a smile on his face, and played with enthusiasm.

joe carter also has two world series rings, and hit a walk-off homer to win one of those w
orld series, in case you forgot.

vernon wells has done.......



SQUAT!

do not get me wrong, i do like vernon wells, just don't think he is worth anywhere near what he gets paid, or that he is anywhere near comparable to joe carter.

Plyrs99

Here we go again. Trying to get people that don't want to understand basic offensive productivity principles and measurements (such as OPS+) is very frustrating, RBI's are such a flawed way to measure players. 100 RBI's should never be used as a primary target for evaluation.

Joe Carter was not a feared hitter. That is a flawed assertion. Teams did not pitch around him... look at his walk totals. Teams wanted to pitch to him to get an easier out and avoid getting more men on base for a batter who was usually much better then Carter behind him (all factors combined with his free swinging that made it easier for him to get RBI's). Having a .300 OBP in the middle of a lineup, is brutal for a team's offence as a whole.. How many RBI's did the five and six hitter lose because Joe Carter did not get on base, or when he used up outs to kill innings more then anybody else in the whole league?

IMO, if your going to use stats to evaluate someone then go all the way and use ones that measure one's true offensive contributions. Not ones that are truly skewed and are only one way... use stats that consider the impact the batter has on the rest of the lineup's production.

The answer is: Both joe Carter and Vernon Wells are well below average performers for cleanup hitters... They are both fairly equal offensive contributors and any accepted offensive metric will reach that conclusion. Using RBI's as the primary basis for measurement is foolish,

Joe Carter should be thankful to Gillick for srrounding him with about 10 better players on the team, and put him in an opportunity to win the World Series. Those were great teams, Joe Carter was merely a good player who was massively overrated.

 

[The Bandit]

Here we go again. Trying to get people that don't want to understand basic offensive productivity principles and measurements (such as OPS+) is very frustrating, RBI's are such a flawed way to measure players. 100 RBI's should never be used as a primary target for evaluation.

Joe Carter was not a feared hitter. That is a flawed assertion. Teams did not pitch around him... look at his walk totals. Teams wanted to pitch to him to get an easier out and avoid getting more men on base for a batter who was usually much better then Carter behind him (all factors combined with his free swinging that made it easier for him to get RBI's). Having a .300 OBP in the middle of a lineup, is brutal for a team's offence as a whole.. How many RBI's did the five and six hitter lose because Joe Carter did not get on base, or when he used up outs to kill innings more then anybody else in the whole league?

IMO, if your going to use stats to evaluate someone then go all the way and use ones that measure one's true offensive contributions. Not ones that are truly skewed and are only one way... use stats that consider the impact the batter has on the rest of the lineup's production.

The answer is: Both joe Carter and Vernon Wells are well below average performers for cleanup hitters... They are both fairly equal offensive contributors and any accepted offensive metric will reach that conclusion. Using RBI's as the primary basis for measurement is foolish,

Joe Carter should be thankful to Gillick for srrounding him with about 10 better players on the team, and put him in an opportunity to win the World Series. Those were great teams, Joe Carter was merely a good player who was massively overrated.

I think the stats speak for themselves...

Joe Carter | Bats: R | Throws: R | Born: 03/07/1960


Hitting Stats: Next Stats >>

SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
1983 Chicago Cubs 23 51 6 9 1 1 0 1 12 0 21 1 0 .176 .235 .176
1984 Cleveland Indians 66 244 32 67 6 1 13 41 114 11 48 2 4 .307 .467 .275
1985 Cleveland Indians 143 489 64 128 27 0 15 59 200 25 74 24 6 .298 .409 .262
1986 Cleveland Indians 162 663 108 200 36 9 29 121 341 32 95 29 7 .335 .514 .302
1987 Cleveland Indians 149 588 83 155 27 2 32 106 282 27 105 31 6 .304 .480 .264
1988 Cleveland Indians 157 621 85 168 36 6 27 98 297 35 82 27 5 .314 .478 .271
1989 Cleveland Indians 162 651 84 158 32 4 35 105 303 39 112 13 5 .292 .465 .243
1990 San Diego Padres 162 634 79 147 27 1 24 115 248 48 93 22 6 .290 .391 .232
1991 Toronto Blue Jays 162 638 89 174 42 3 33 108 321 49 112 20 9 .330 .503 .273
1992 Toronto Blue Jays 158 622 97 164 30 7 34 119 310 36 109 12 5 .309 .498 .264
1993 Toronto Blue Jays 155 603 92 153 33 5 33 121 295 47 113 8 3 .312 .489 .254
1994 Toronto Blue Jays 111 435 70 118 25 2 27 103 228 33 64 11 0 .317 .524 .271
1995 Toronto Blue Jays 139 558 70 141 23 0 25 76 239 37 87 12 1 .300 .428 .253
1996 Toronto Blue Jays 157 625 84 158 35 7 30 107 297 44 106 7 6 .306 .475 .253
1997 Toronto Blue Jays 157 612 76 143 30 4 21 102 244 40 105 8 2 .284 .399 .234
1998 Baltimore Orioles 85 283 36 70 15 1 11 34 120 18 48 3 1 .297 .424 .247
1998 San Francisco Giants 41 105 15 31 7 0 7 29 59 6 13 1 0 .322 .562 .295


Career Totals G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
Career Totals 2189 8422 1170 2184 432 53 396 1445 3910 527 1387 231 66 .306 .464 .259

 

[maurice93]

This brings me back to the arguments of 5 years ago I used to have on Expos (RIP_ message boardswhether Tony Batista actually had a very productive year for the Montreal Expos in 2004.

I think I'm starting to get a little too "stathead" obnoxious on this thread, so I will try to be a little more respectful to other viewpoints.

 

[salsamarc]

I think I'm starting to get a little too "stathead" obnoxious on this thread, so I will try to be a little more respectful to other viewpoints.

wow! that is big of you....but again I think if given a choice a pitcher will rather face Wells than Carter but you are right when you said that Both joe Carter and Vernon Wells are well below average performers for cleanup hitters.......... now Delgado THERE is a hitter the opposing pitchers hated to face when he was in the zone watch out Hard Rock Cafe he hit some monsters shots that way....

moving on, Lind had 5 RBIs tonight, he has my vote for clean up hitter (which will be a good idea to have a lefty between Rios and Wells anyways)

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Brett Cecil background info:
http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2009/5/5/865431/who-is-brett-cecil

 

[slowandeasy]

Cecil Pitched well the other day. Good for him and great for the Jays.

Now I am just wondering if/when Cito is going to speak to Rios or drop him down in the batting order.

There are obvious reasons for dropping down in the batting order.

The reasons for keeping him there are debatable.
1. Loyalty and Trust. Most guys prefer when they are in a slump that their
manager gives them a chance play thru it. When that happens, a player
will usually reward that trust by playing his ass off.
Its just been 30 games in this season

I would counter that he did not have a good year last year either.

2. The team is playing exceptionally well right now and winning games, why
fuck with it?

I agree with the above two, and I would not move Rios as yet, but I hope that Cito is in his ear a bit. My biggest concern with Rios is that he looks
bored or uninterested when he is out there.

 

[The LoLRus]

Cito is amazing, where the hell did he find this Cecil guy????
Called up from triple A I assume and pitches a gem, only 1 earned run, 6 K's and 0 walks

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=mlb&playerID=446399

I never even heard of this dude

 

[Perry Mason]

Rios has been a crappy hitter ever since that All Star Home Run Derby in 2007.

OTOH, I am starting to believe that the Jays are the real thing this year... reminders of the Rockies of 2007 and, to some extent, of last year's Rays. If Rios, Wells and Overbay can come alive and Snider becomes more consistent, they could go a long way, especially as their pitching comes together again.

But let's wait and see what happens when they play the Sox, Yanks and Rays... that will be the acid test... can they play at least .500 ball against the Sox and Yanks? If so, we could have another World Series played down by the lake.

Perry

 

[lawyerman]

Sometimes what Cito does doesn't always appear in the boxscores ... Cito doesn't over think the game and I heard on the radio that his actions may lose a game today but how he treated the player maybe reward with more wins ..

Exactly. The Jays are not going to win every game but Cito tries to create a more relaxed atmosphere. The players don't need a guy yelling at them all the time. Cito is very knowldgeable and I'm sure if someone gets out of order, he know how to handle them.