Bibi Wins, Two State Solution Dies?

[fuji]

If you recognize the UN as the supreme authority, then you should accept the UN resolution recognizing the right of arab refugees displaced during 1948 war to return to their homes. Why are you cherry picking UN resolutions ?

I certainly agree with that resolution. When will the Arabs agree to the preconditions that resolution sets out for their return?

It is resolution 194, available online, and while it is not a binding resolution such as a security council resolution, it sets out a good framework, which I agree with. Feel free to read it.

 

[fuji]

Here is the text GoWest:

"Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible"

Have the refugees indicated through their representatives that they are willing to live at peace as required by this resolution?

Yes or no will suffice.

 

[fuji]

Great. Do you also include the rights of the ones from Jaffa and Haifa to return to their homes ?

The ones who were born in Israel, certainly, as soon as they accept the terms set out in resolution 194. For nearly sixty years they have explicitly rejected peace with Israel, a precondition of return. But certainly if they change their mind and accept peace with Israel then those who were born in Israel should return, or be paid compensation if they choose not to.

 

[fuji]

Only the ones who were born there ? so why the ones who are born in Europe have the right to return after 2000 years and not the ones whose fathers were displaced 60 years ago ?

Those who were born there have a natural born claim to Israeli citizenship. No one else does.

An American Jew immigrating to Israel APPLIES FOR citizenship. They did not have a natural born right to citizenship, the have to apply for it. While Israel certainly prefers Jewish immigrants, that is an immigration law issue, nothing to do with who already does or doesn't have Israeli citizenship.

For example, if your ancestors fled Ireland for Canada a hundred years ago you do NOT have a claim in Irish citizenship. You could certainly try and apply for it, but you do not have it automatically just because your ancestors were refugees from that country.

Same rule here.

For great clarity the Jews of Europe who migrate to Israel are immigrating to Israel, not returning there, whatever rhetoric is used, they enter Israel as immigrants and apply for citizenship.

 

[fuji]

Why are you lying
This is what the Israeli government website says, they call it law of return not law of immigration
http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ConsularServices/Pages/Visas.aspx

They have the automatic right for Israeli citizenship as they are granted the Israeli citizenship upon arrival
So generations who presumably have been away for 2000 years have the right to return and that includes the converts whose ancestors didn't come from middle east but not the ones who have been ways for 60 years.
Doesn't seem to be fair to me.

Your own link confirms that is an immigration visa: "According to the law, the authority to issue the immigration visa lies solely with the diplomatic / consular representative." So it is an immigration visa not a claim of preexisting citizenship.

Whether it seems fair to you or not, Israel like every state is allowed to decide what sort of immigrants it wants. Canada selects based on age and education, Israel selects based on Jewish ethnicity/religion.

In any case there is no universal right to citizenship in a country your ancestors lived in, countries are allowed to set whatever immigration policy they want to.

 

[fuji]

Let's take a moment to summarize:

1. The West Bank is not part of Israel
2. Netanyahu has no authority to change that without at least a Knesset vote
3. Netanyahu has not said it is part of Israel
4. Netanyahu has even said there should be a Palestine state in the future
5. If no Palestinian state emerges it still wouldn't be part of Israel
6. Palestinian have not yet accepted the preconditions for return under resolution 192
7. Those entitled to return if they do accept it are those who were born in Israel
8. Other immigration to Israel, such as the policy of encouraging Jewish immigration, are matters of immigration visa law

I hope we won't see you falsely claiming that the West Bank is part of Israel in future.

 

[fuji]

I'm quoting from the same website, the text of the law of return
http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFA-Archive/1950-1959/Pages/Law of Return 5710-1950.aspx

so the law explicitly mentions a right and not a privilege to immigrate like the case of Canada. Citizenship and immigration Canada never says that a certain category of people has the right to come to Canada, it just says may apply.
Which contradicts your falsely claims

And? It is still an immigration visa. Do you have a point? At all?

Israel has a different immigration law than Canada does. So what?

 

[fuji]

Hey guess what I just looked at Canada's immigration law and guess what? It does define categories of people who have a right to enter Canada, using the word "right". For example, convention refugees who meet the criteria set out have a right of entry.

So you are just flat out wrong that Israel's law is somehow different because it used the word right. Canada also defines the conditions that make someone eligible for a right of entry.

You are caught once again MAKING THINGS UP.

 

[Moviefan-2]

They live in a state ( Israel ) that denies them an independent state ( Netenyahu last statements ) and denies them citizenship.

I see.

Two questions for you:

Does the Palestinian Authority consider the West Bank and Gaza to be part of the state of Israel?

Did the Arabs who supposedly have been 'denied' citizenship in Israel actually apply for citizenship?

 

[fuji]

They have the right to enter the canadian territory until their application is processed not the right to settle in Canada.

That is the same. Jews migrating to Israel get an entry visa while their qualifications are checked. Exactly the same, just different qualifications. In both cases there are documents and claims that may need some time to investigate and in the meantime an entry visa is granted.

Still waiting for you to retract your claim that West Bank is part of Israel or that Netanyahu ever said it was

Your MO is clearly to ignore posts where your lies are destroyed by the actual facts. I have noticed that after awhile you will try and sneak back and repeat stuff that had already previously been refuted.

 

[AK-47]

Whats funny about all this is, if you're gonna deny Israel statehood you really should leave North-America while you're at it, since most Canadians and Americans are not native-Indians, and officially hold no claim to any land here

 

[fuji]

Do crees and Ojibwes need to apply for Canadian citizenship? There's the right for a nationally which is recognized under international law that Israel is violating. It's against the international law to keep a population stateless.You either give them an independent state or the citizenship.Israel is denying both

Cree and Ojibwe who were born in Canada, like Arabs born in Israel, are natural citizens by right of being born in country.

As usual you are just wrong. You were wrong about what Netanyahu said, falsely claiming he said there would never be a Palestinian state. You were wrong about Israeli immigration law being different than Canada, both assert rights for people who qualify. You were wrong about resolution 192, which sets or a framework for natural born citizens to return ONLY IF they agree to peace. You were wrong about the status of the occupied territory, which numerous authoritative sources agree isn't Israeli, and you are again wrongly equating aboriginals born in Canada to Arabs born outside Israel.

Arabs in Israel enjoy full equality, including full democratic rights, just like Canadian Cree and Ojibwe. In fact Israel is the only Middle East country to extend that level of equality to everyone and Arabs in Israel are freer than in any Arab country.

 

[fuji]

There's the right for a nationally which is recognized under international law that Israel is violating.

You literally MADE THAT UP. You cannot possibly justify that statement. There is no such international law, you simply cannot cite any such treaty or convention.

You are blatantly lying.

 

[fuji]

This is not exactly the same, the law of return states that every jew has the right to settle in Israel not just entering Israeli territory.

Seriously give up, Canadian immigration law puts them on a clear path to citizenship provided they meet the qualifications. You have completely lost this argument.

You were forced to admit Jews immigration to Israel were applying for visas under an immigration law and after that really you have no point at all.

Israel is entitled to set whatever immigration policy it likes.

Non citizens from outside Israel do not have any right to Israeli citizenship.

Another difference is that even after the canadian government accepts the application of refugees, there are cases where the canadian government can decide that those refugees no longer need protection and can be returned to their home,

Israel too can decide that someone claiming to be Jewish doesn't meet the qualification.

You simply lose. The Israeli law is just an immigration law giving preference to a category of immigrants they want to attract.

Pick any category, spousal immigration if you like. Canadian law uses similar language and the application process is much the same.

 

[Moviefan-2]

Do crees and Ojibwes need to apply for Canadian citizenship? There's the right for a nationally which is recognized under international law that Israel is violating. It's against the international law to keep a population stateless.You either give them an independent state or the citizenship.Israel is denying both

I will amend my second question:

Does the Palestinian Authority consider the West Bank and Gaza to be part of the state of Israel?

Did the Arabs who have supposedly been "denied" citizenship in Israel ever express any interest in being recognized as Israeli citizens?

 

[Moviefan-2]

The UN says that it's the state responsibility to prevent statelessness regardless of people expressing interest or not.l

So your position is the UN wants Israel to force Israeli citizenship on Arabs who don't want it.

What utter nonsense.

 

[Moviefan-2]

Who's responsible of the statelessness of those populations then ? Israel doesn't want to give them a state either
Half of Quebecker have no interest in Canadian citizenship ( 1995 referendum) and the majority of french speaking Quebecker don't want to be called Canadians, is it a reason to keep them stateless ?
And BTW Israel forced Israeli citizenship on the arabs who stayed after 1948 because they had no choice accept it or get deported.

The UN has not called for Israel to assimilate the West Bank and Gaza into the state of Israel.

 

[Moviefan-2]

The UN says it's against the intentional law to keep people stateless so you either give them a or citizenship, did Israel offer one of these two options ?

Yes, actually. The Palestinians were offered their own state in 2001 and 2008. The Palestinians rejected the offers, for obvious reasons (they won't accept any arrangement that allows Israel to continue to exist).

I reiterate my point: The UN has not called for Israel to assimilate the West Bank and Gaza into the state of Israel.

 

[Moviefan-2]

To my knowledge , Netenyahu is the one who explicitly rejected two weeks ago that palestinians have their own state.
Abbas never said that he doesn't want a state
Abbas never said that Israel shouldn't exist, stop lying.

The first offer was rejected by Arafat, whose PLO was quite clear when it came to its views on Israel.

As for Abbas, he knows the majority of Palestinians oppose any agreement that includes recognition of Israel's right to exist.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.601938

Abbas isn't going to sign a peace agreement that requires the Palestinians to recognize Israel as a state. Meanwhile, it remains a fact that the Palestinians were offered their own state and rejected the offers.

 

[basketcase]

GoWest doesnt hate Jews, he's just terribly concerned with the Palestinian people.

Right GW???

Except for when Arab states abuse them.