Another Malaysian Airways flight down over Ukraine....
- Thread starter gfelover
- Start date
And because of what you acknowledge here, I doubt that even 90% of Russians believe whatever Putin says. Perhaps it's half that number and the rest just STFU.
The Ruskies aren't just going to hand those over to rebels or separatists, but I still worry about their nukes like you say.
No, they believe it, based on my experience w Russians on FB. It's an interesting topic. Remember that they have no tradition of fact-checking their govt there. The 1960's never happened in Russia. All dissidents were jailed or gulag-ed. Conformity and mass participation in govt events was mandated. Patriotism was force-fed to the populace daily. Most media were - and still are - controlled by the govt. And the most implausible conspiracy theories are sanctioned as real.
The Cold War and the USSR never really ended in Russia. They just changed the packaging and kept right on going. It's fascinating to see it close up.
And I thought that RT was better than CNN (western MSM also are guilty of 'propaganda', but that's another story).
Did you see that episode with Anthony Bourdain in Russia? It was fascinating too.
I'll check on YouTube for the Bourdain episode.
While CNN can buy into State Dept BS and present it as fact - i.e. "weapons of mass destruction" - Russian news media simply invents the news each day according to instructions from the Kremlin - complete w fake interviews, fake footage and dishonest news commentary. All the time. It's an eye-opener.
Tip of the iceberg. Read and boggle...
http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-s-top-80-lies-about-ukraine
If I'm not mistaken Ukraine gave up all its nukes during the Soviet break-up period. There was a lot of world concern then about the weapon placements and Ukraine didn't keep theirs.
There are many CIA assets in the media, but what you describe for the Russians is appalling.
I think you're right.
But what about the whole Russian federation, or rogues within the system?
Ukraine is not blameless, but of course we need to find out who fired the missile, and why before we can conclude what happened. The Ukraine claims they were aware that the separatists had these missiles, why would they not close the airspace completely. I hope we will get some credible, non-politicized version of the facts. But I am not optimistic.
the rebels shot down the plane... the rebels were given missle launchers by Russia... the rebels are pro-russian... they shot down a military plane killing 2 dozen ppl last month...there was a rebel leader boasting on social media that he had taken down a plane, hours before the news got out it was a commercial jet...
the facts do far lead me to believe that Ukraine is not to blame... btw why is the air space in danger?...i dunno, maybe because russia invaded a sovereign state?... sorry man, but this all leads to Putin..
What may happen here is that Putin may leave the separatists hang out to dry, keep Crimea and call it a win.
There are no facts to support your accusations of Russia and the bogeyman Putin. At least not yet.
I think it is much more likely, if the separatist forces indeed shot the plane down, that they captured the missile launchers from the Ukrainian military, or took them with them when groups of soldiers defected to the separatist side. For whatever it is worth, Russia denies that weapon systems have crossed the border from Russia.
It's not going to be the end for Putin.
Sorry, not even close.
The Americans shop down an Iranian airbus in 1988 killing everyone on board and the Americans just chalked it up to "whoops". In fact, they even pinned a medal on the American commander who was in charge of the ship that fired the missile. Eventually it gets forgotten.
I highly doubt that there will even be increased sanctions against Russia because we in the west want that trade with Russia. Money talks. Even up till now, the Europeans (namely Germany) had been resisting any sort of sanction against Russia. Audi and Daimler Benz and BMW are not going to give a shit about Dotensk. Sorry to piss on your fire.
All that said, if you want to rattle Putin's cage, find out where all his money is hidden and where he stole it from. I have the sneaking suspicion he's right up there with the likes of Mubarek and every other tin pot dictator. They all steel money and they all hide it off shore. I'd pay money to see Putin's face when the Americans freeze his cash.
Sorry, not even close.
The Americans shop down an Iranian airbus in 1988 killing everyone on board and the Americans just chalked it up to "whoops". In fact, they even pinned a medal on the American commander who was in charge of the ship that fired the missile. Eventually it gets forgotten.
I highly doubt that there will even be increased sanctions against Russia because we in the west want that trade with Russia. Money talks. Even up till now, the Europeans (namely Germany) had been resisting any sort of sanction against Russia. Audi and Daimler Benz and BMW are not going to give a shit about Dotensk. Sorry to piss on your fire.
All that said, if you want to rattle Putin's cage, find out where all his money is hidden and where he stole it from. I have the sneaking suspicion he's right up there with the likes of Mubarek and every other tin pot dictator. They all steel money and they all hide it off shore. I'd pay money to see Putin's face when the Americans freeze his cash.
The pilot of MH17 radioed that he 'felt uncomfortable' about the route he was flying while over Ukraine and fatally altered his course to hostile territory, according to an expert. Dr Igor Sutyagin, Research Fellow in Russian Studies from the Royal United Services Institute, believes that MH17 was shot down by rebels based in the 3rd District of Torez, in eastern Ukraine, after mistaking his plane for a government military transport aircraft.
He told MailOnline that information had been leaked from a source he was unwilling to name that the pilot of MH17 'felt bad' about his course over Ukrainian airspace, so changed direction. Little did he know, according to Dr Sutyagin, that his plane would then be mistaken by rebels who brought it down using a ground-to-air Buk missile system. Malaysia Airlines today denied that the plane was told to alter its course.
His comments come as Vladimir Putin called for a ceasefire by pro-Russian separatists and Ukrainian government forces to allow for negotiations. A top separatist leader in east Ukraine has ruled out a truce with government forces but pledged to allow investigators to access the crash site. 'There is no question of a ceasefire but we will let experts access the site of the catastrophe,' Alexander Borodai, the prime minister of the self-proclaimed 'Donetsk People's Republic', told journalists.
Dr Sutyagin's theory appears to be supported by a route map which shows the passenger plane travelling on a different course to the ones taken by the previous ten MH17 flights. Twitter user Vagelis Karmiros collated the information from Flightaware, the largest flight tracking website in the world.
Dr Sutyagin said: 'There is a Ukrainian mechanised brigade blocked by separatists near the Russian border. 'It's blocked on three sides by separatists and behind the brigade is the Russian border, so they can't get out. The Ukrainians try to resupply them from the air by transport aircraft. 'Now, the pilot of MH17 said that he "felt bad" and wanted to change course south to get out of the danger zone. But several kilometers to the south is a Ukrainian Army heavy transport plane, an IL76, or Candid, which has the same echo as a 777 on a radar screen. 'The two planes came close. They tried to shoot down the transport delivering supplies to the brigade. They believed that they had been firing at a military plane, but they mistakenly shoot down a civilian airliner.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tists-shot-missile-McCain-warns-Hell-pay.html
He told MailOnline that information had been leaked from a source he was unwilling to name that the pilot of MH17 'felt bad' about his course over Ukrainian airspace, so changed direction. Little did he know, according to Dr Sutyagin, that his plane would then be mistaken by rebels who brought it down using a ground-to-air Buk missile system. Malaysia Airlines today denied that the plane was told to alter its course.
His comments come as Vladimir Putin called for a ceasefire by pro-Russian separatists and Ukrainian government forces to allow for negotiations. A top separatist leader in east Ukraine has ruled out a truce with government forces but pledged to allow investigators to access the crash site. 'There is no question of a ceasefire but we will let experts access the site of the catastrophe,' Alexander Borodai, the prime minister of the self-proclaimed 'Donetsk People's Republic', told journalists.
Dr Sutyagin's theory appears to be supported by a route map which shows the passenger plane travelling on a different course to the ones taken by the previous ten MH17 flights. Twitter user Vagelis Karmiros collated the information from Flightaware, the largest flight tracking website in the world.
Dr Sutyagin said: 'There is a Ukrainian mechanised brigade blocked by separatists near the Russian border. 'It's blocked on three sides by separatists and behind the brigade is the Russian border, so they can't get out. The Ukrainians try to resupply them from the air by transport aircraft. 'Now, the pilot of MH17 said that he "felt bad" and wanted to change course south to get out of the danger zone. But several kilometers to the south is a Ukrainian Army heavy transport plane, an IL76, or Candid, which has the same echo as a 777 on a radar screen. 'The two planes came close. They tried to shoot down the transport delivering supplies to the brigade. They believed that they had been firing at a military plane, but they mistakenly shoot down a civilian airliner.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tists-shot-missile-McCain-warns-Hell-pay.html
It is not clear yet if the rebels shot it down, it is not clear where the launcher came from, Ukraine had these missiles in inventory and rebels are reported to have captured them. So we do not know yet. Ukraine reported a plane was shot down at 21K feet. This would indicate the rebels or someone had an AA capability beyond MANPADS. At this point they should have closed airspace over the country to overflight. So if your scenario plays out, Ukraine is guilty of the much lesser crime of negligence. Sovereign nations are reponsible for the management of their airspace, and when they cannot manage it, they should close it. Of course if what you say plays out, then the Russians are accessory to the fact of criminal negligence causing death. But in this case it is a crime to me much less serious then the shoot down of the Iranian airliner by the US cruiser in the past. But for sure, Russia will be culpable for several billion dollars in damages if they provided ANY direct assistance to the scum that killed all those innocent people. Man some of the video on the web is just horrific. I cannot imagine wanting to be an emergency responder and not being utterly damaged by being involved in the aftermath of one of these. To the responders to these tragedies, you are real heroes.
