Affirmative Action

JohnLarue

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Jan 19, 2005
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The only thing I learned from you is that you like a minority of people [the very wealthy] to be able to buy their way into university rather than working hard for it.
well since you got that wrong (the important point you ignore is Alumni fund many students who otherwise could not attend college)
& since you claim it is the only thing you learned >>>> the only logical conclusion is you are incapable of learning.

Strict adherence to your ideology is preventing you from seeing the value in compromise

I want fairness for all, you don’t.
is it fair to have the application rejected for white student with A, A- marks in favor of an affirmative action student with C+, B- marks ?
you do not want fairness you want to appear politically correct

please explain why you accept discrimination only if it is discrimination against white people ?
please explain why your goal is not elimination of ALL discrimination

I want fairness for all, you don’t.
All include all applicants
 

tiberius6675

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Jun 8, 2023
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is it fair to have the application rejected for white student with A, A- marks in favor of an affirmative action student with C+, B- marks ?
1. Who told you that affirmative action students have C+ or B-? Stating that they do, is first and foremost racist. Affirmative action students also score A or A-.

2. To answer your question. Yes, it is fair. It is also fair, to pass over a minority with an A or A- and instead opt to enroll a white student with a C+. It is fair to pass on people with higher scores because it is your overall profile that matters. People with stellar extracurriculars, or people who have a unique profile, or people who are from a little known country, or people who have low scores but are entrepreneurial or have shown entrepreneurial qualities, people who have gone through tough times in life like civil war, or people who have very unique past job experiences and so on. Schools dont want to enroll nerds. They want a student body that is socially and experientially diverse.

For example, let us consider the University of Toronto's Rotman school of business. Their current average GMAT score is 661 to 730. If a white Canadian student applies with a 740, and has to compete with a student from Papua New Guinea with a score of 660 and a very unique profile and life experiences, it is likely that the Canadian student may get passed over for the international student. Because the international student adds more to the experiences of the student body, than the garden variety white Canadian guy. Mind you this is not even affirmative action, but this is just an example of how admissions work.

That is how admissions work, and they are right. The purpose of education is not just to score grades and graduate, it is to expose students to a diversity of experiences and learning. Otherwise it is just rote learning.
 

Darts

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Jan 15, 2017
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"very unique profile and life experiences,"
Some/many white people also have unique profiles and life experiences too.
 

JohnLarue

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1. Who told you that affirmative action students have C+ or B-? Stating that they do, is first and foremost racist. Affirmative action students also score A or A-.
if Affirmative action students also score A or A-, then there is absolutly no need for affirmative action
They will be admitted based on merit , if they match up to the best of the applicant pool

demanding Affirmative action is an admission you do not believe visible minorities or women can compete vs. white males
I believe they can compete

2. To answer your question. Yes, it is fair.
no it is not
you are discriminating against white students for wrongs committed before they were born
it is both discriminatory and vengeful


it is also fair, to pass over a minority with an A or A- and instead opt to enroll a white student with a C+
.
if marks are the criteria, the minority student gets the nod
it is bewildering to think you did not understand this

It is fair to pass on people with higher scores because it is your overall profile that matters. People with stellar extracurriculars, or people who have a unique profile, or people who are from a little known country, or people who have low scores but are entrepreneurial or have shown entrepreneurial qualities
,
all reasonable considerations except country of origin, that is irrelevant

people who have gone through tough times in life like civil war,
that is also irrelevant
sorry you had to experience war up close however that is not relevant
unless one served in the military and acquired the discipline and team work experience required

or people who have very unique past job experiences and so on.
this is relevant

Schools dont want to enroll nerds. They want a student body that is socially and experientially diverse.
that pendulum has swung too far to the left

graduating thousands of soon to be unemployable social justice warriors, whose present career appears to gluing themselves to freeways and / or art work

schools actually need to enroll students who will be successful in a program which leads to employment


For example, let us consider the University of Toronto's Rotman school of business. Their current average GMAT score is 661 to 730. If a white Canadian student applies with a 740, and has to compete with a student from Papua New Guinea with a score of 660 and a very unique profile and life experiences, it is likely that the Canadian student may get passed over for the international student. Because the international student adds more to the experiences of the student body, than the garden variety white Canadian guy. Mind you this is not even affirmative action, but this is just an example of how admissions work
.

and that would be wrong
740 is a very strong score
i have observed the progress of +700 scores through a similar program, they outperformed and by a significant amount
a 700+ score should be a layup admission , independent of race

I have also observed some (but not all) English as a second language students struggle in programs,
communication and presentation skills were abysmal
Hard working, highly analytical , truly nice people, however, very quite and reserved people who needed to be assigned work in any team orientated exercise
nice hard working people, however limited leadership potential

on a more positive note: Similar minorities with more English experience struggled far less

Businees absolutly requires strong communication skills
That is how hat is how admissions work,t., and they are right.
you mean that is how admissions did work,

and they are right.
apparently not in the USA , according to their supreme court

T The purpose of education is not just to score grades and graduate, it is to expose students to a diversity of experiences and learning. Otherwise it is just rote learning.
The purpose of education is to prepare students for the next phase of their life, which for many is entering the workforce
work is far more demanding than school

A well educated , productive workforce it is a requirement for a healthy economy,
A healthy economy, is a requirement for a healthy peaceful society

Affirmative action is both discriminatory and vengeful
 
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tiberius6675

Member
Jun 8, 2023
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neither should being non-white

people have very unique profile and life experiences
and these experiences are not race dependent
Being a minority automatically adds something unique to your profile. Because they are the minority. That's the whole point of calling them a minority, meaning that they are not as common.
 

tiberius6675

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Jun 8, 2023
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if Affirmative action students also score A or A-, then there is absolutly no need for affirmative action
This is where you are wrong. Affirmative action is to counter racial bias and ensure everyone's inclusion, without which minorities will get left out. It has nothing to do with admitting students who score less etc., As I also mentioned scores are not the only determining criteria for admissions. You put all that together, affirmative action or not, everyone admitted deserves to be there.

The fact that you don't understand this, makes the rest of your post irrelevant.
 
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JohnLarue

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This is where you are wrong. Affirmative action is to counter racial bias and ensure everyone's inclusion, without which minorities will get left out.
re-branding a pig part by calling it tenderloin does not change the fact its a pig part

Average marks for one student is B-
Average marks for another student is A

there is zero racial bias as you can not distinguish race based on marks alone

It has nothing to do with admitting students who score less etc.,
sure it does

that is exactly what is the action in Affirmative action


As I also mentioned scores are not the only determining criteria for admissions. You put all that together, affirmative action or not, everyone admitted deserves to be there.
Admission is capped for most programs
affirmative action overrides marks criteria to admit affirmative action students
by definition a non-affirmative action student must have their application rejected for each affirmative action,
everyone who deserves to be there is not admitted

if minority student marks are top tier , they get in & no affirmative action is required at all
if there are not capacity issues for a program , then all applying should get in & no affirmative action is required at all

why you are incapable of understanding this is bewildering

The fact that you don't understand this, makes the rest of your post irrelevant.
i understand very well
The fact that you are willing to ignore the discrimination in affirmative action makes your position a
hypocrisy
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
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Being a minority automatically adds something unique to your profile. Because they are the minority. That's the whole point of calling them a minority, meaning that they are not as common.
skin pigmentation has absolutely nothing to do with a persons character

1688417602359.png

mi·nor·i·ty
the smaller number or part, especially a number that is less than half the whole number.
 

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Darts

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Jan 15, 2017
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I am a firm believer in affirmative action in track.

I challenge Usain Bolt to a 100 metre race. Bolt will start at 0 metre and I'll start at the 95 metre mark. It's only fair.
 

tiberius6675

Member
Jun 8, 2023
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I am a firm believer in affirmative action in track.

I challenge Usain Bolt to a 100 metre race. Bolt will start at 0 metre and I'll start at the 95 metre mark. It's only fair.
Yeah, you'd pull a charlie horse at 98 meters and still blame Usain.
 

John_Jacob

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Nov 23, 2022
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>Let's deal with the idiotic part first . You can create any outcome you like by creating definitions that suit your narrative.
Yes, much like how you want to change what a Professional is to suit your world view

You are confusing "to be professional" or "to act professional" with a Professional. There is a difference. Professionals are regulated and have a board that can sanction and terminate their ability to work in their profession. Doctors have this, Accountants have this, Engineers have this, Lawyers (as you should know) have this. Teachers do not.


Are you seriously suggesting that a teacher does not have a career because they are unionized. Absurd.
They have a job. There is a difference. If you don't understand the difference, you never will.

IQ is an indicator not because it says something about the prospects of the candidate but because the high test score changes his trajectory and so it becomes self fulfilling. Most iq tests are culturally biased and hence they are relied upon less and less.
IQ tests are Western-culture based so sure, they have a bia. Western culture, the invtentor of the scientific method, debate and other forms of higher civilization. BUT, here is the thing. Your opinion on "cultural-biased" is out of date as IQ tests have changed to be cultural neutral. Guess what? The results didn't change a bit. As of IQ tests being 'relied' on, to the best of my knowledge, they are not 'relied' on for anything (but are called something else), they are a strong indicator of intelligence which is a strong indicator of academic achievement which is a strong indicator that they will do well in life. Perhaps you can show me examples where IQ tests are "relied' on? Put up or shut up, SHOW me academic studies that contract this.

Many years ago I was on the hiring committee at the law firm where I was then a partner. Marks were used in order to stream the candidates because we received so many applications. A much bigger criteria was the candidates perceived EQ rather than IQ. There was zero correlation between marks and success. One of my former students is now a judge and he used to joke that he had the lowest LSAT ever recorded.
The management commitee made a decision back then that diversity was good for business and we did recruit with diversity and inclusion as one of many factors. Each of the minority students, without exception, went on to very successful careers.
So instead of spouting platitudes and cliches try dealing in the real world.

So what? The plural of anecdotes is NOT data. Why do you think your personal experience is representative of the whole? Are you the secretary at the firm? An educated lawyer would no the difference between personal experience and fact. Put up or shut up, SHOW me academic studies that contract IQ is not an indicator of success in life, not success in a 2nd class law firm that hires graduates from Windsor.

So instead of spouting platitudes, why don't you prove your opinions with data and facts? We both know why you haven't.
 

John_Jacob

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Nov 23, 2022
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Pilot isn't a profession, it's a job and pilots aren't professionals. Got it. Same with air traffic controllers, police, firefighters, paramedics. I'm pretty sure there's a big list of "jobs" that pretty much everyone would consider a career and that pretty much everyone would consider professional that your definition doesn't count.

You might want to rethink it.
You are confusing "to be professional" or "to act professional" with a Professional. There is a difference. Professionals are regulated and have a board that can sanction and terminate their ability to work in their profession including a public complaint process. Doctors have this, Accountants have this, Engineers have this, Lawyers (as you should know) have this. Teachers and Pilots do not.
 
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