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Trump/Zelensky deal turns into Jerry Springer episode

kherg007

Well-known member
May 3, 2014
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Think of it from Zelenskyy's POV:
His country HAD a security guarantee in exchange for giving up nukes. That guarantee was not honored by the Russians. First in Crimea, then in a full fledged invasion by the Russians. He's only asking for the tools to defend his country from obliteration. He's not asking for bodies. He's fighting for his country's sovereignty. Now he's being asked to give up a chunk of his bank account (rare earth minerals etc) but he wants ironclad guarantees because he knows how well the Russians honored the last guarantee.
Remember he sees daily his country is having its hospitals and schools and residential units and power grid routinely blown up by rocket attacks. He also knows a Russian takeover means certain death to a big chunk of Ukrainians, through arrests and unfortunate falls from windows.

For less than 5% of its DoD budget the USA was able to knock out a third of the Russian army. One of the best investments it has ever made. Plus it's learning from the Ukrainians new tactics.

The framing of this in that white house "discussion" disturbs me. It's like there is a sense this war with Ukraine v Russia was 2 blokes going the biff in a bar fight. But this was an invasion, more like a mob of blokes attacking someone on their front lawn. And the bloke forced into a fight on his lawn is the problem? There is no war if the Russians leave Ukraine. So somehow it's Zelenskyy who is fighting for his country's freedom with the Russian army inside his country attacking his army AND civilians is somehow the one prolonging this? If he stops fighting he and his country are doomed.

That's why he's willing to resign and/or give up the minerals but he wants an ironclad guarantee. He remembers the last guarantee.
Every country in that region has a history with the Russians. None of it is good.

Now a side effect of Trump walking away is all of the US allies in Asia are shitting their pants as they realize US security guarantees mean nothing. Or will be amended to look like a protection racket. This will lead to nuclear proliferation as it seems the only way to stop invading powers is to have nukes. The south Koreans have been advocating for nukes but the Biden administration said we got your back, no need for you to have your own nukes. Now that a USA security guarantee is worth shit, what do you do?
Either open the door for china, let them bully and pillage your resources, or Japan, south Korea, Australia etc will want and try to obtain their own nukes. Likely followed by every other country on earth.

And more nukes = more chance one gets free and finds it's way into some terrorist group.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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True. If you go back through history, it's been easier to introduce two new states with dissimilar party preferences. Alaska and Hawaii in 1959 would be a good example. Nixon carried one and Kennedy carried the other in 1960. One could argue Hawaii and Alaska statehood was also a strategic decision to extend U.S. boundaries in the Pacific and the Arctic.

I think there would be broad support for D.C. statehood if we brought in Alberta simultaneously. ;)
There was a flat out agreement for years to introduce states that would vote opposite party in order to keep the Senate balanced.
That was primarily part of keeping the balance to try and prevent the Civil War.
 

Shaquille Oatmeal

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2023
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This is a very good point, but how would you know exactly that Ukrainians desire to keep fighting until all the Eastern lands are recovered?

To have some fun paraphrasing a favorite movie of mine, this seems as good a time as any.

The Ukrainians tell Shaquille what is good.
To be against Shaquille is to be against the Ukrainians.
The Ukrainians speak to Shaquille and Shaquille tells the world!


My hubris only extends about as far as the sentiment of Americans.
The Ukrainians have atleast indicated what they would desire.
Which, broadly, is Ukraine's security and continued alignment with the west.
And I think you underestimate the extent of your hubris.
Hubris is conducting (and supporting) peace talks in Saudi Arabia without Ukraine, not repeating what the Ukrainians have already indicated.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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Many people have made deals with Russia that were not broken. The treaty with Finland has lasted for decades, even though the Fins have now stupidly join NATO and become super confrontational. Ukraine was super belligerent with Russia after they destroyed their democracy and resisted every attempt to avoid war. So here we are. The only other option is to not seek a peace and then you will have unconditional surrender.
So why are you against security guarantees, since they are just part of the never-perfect trust process necessary to a peace deal?
 

DesRicardo

aka Dick Dastardly
Dec 2, 2022
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Clamping down on waste and fraud is going to negatively impact many people directly and inadvertently.

Real leadership requires looking at long-term benefits. Politicians only care about short term gains, especially during election seasons.

Trump has the wherewithal to understand that the status quo is a train on a collision course.

We had a leader like that in Ontario many years ago named Mike Harris.
Fraud and wasteful spending are two separate things. Wasteful spending is an open discussion.

In order to get to long-term benefits, short-term goals must be hit. That's how you don't get suckered into things like this.

Trump can say anything he wants, In the end it's about delivering results. And just think, negotiations with China haven't even started.


You say "Real leadership requires looking at long-term benefits." then you mention Mike Harris. Sorry, doesn't line up. :ROFLMAO:
 
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nottyboi

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May 14, 2008
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So why are you against security guarantees, since they are just part of the never-perfect trust process necessary to a peace deal?
I am not in principal as I believe they are meaningless. But the more security guarantees given by NATO nations only means continuation of the war. IMHO Russia has no desire to stop until Ukraine has no Black Sea coast. If you have any sense of history you would also understand why Odessa belongs with Russia. Maybe also Kiev. Ukraine is really Livov minus the Polish and Hungarian lands. That's the REAL Ukraine.(BTW I have have a few drinks at this point so I may disagree with myself tomorrow) 🤣🤷‍♂️
 

northofsixty

Member
Jun 23, 2017
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Trying to stay in a Happy Place

WyattEarp

Well-known member
May 17, 2017
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Think of it from Zelenskyy's POV:
His country HAD a security guarantee in exchange for giving up nukes. That guarantee was not honored by the Russians. First in Crimea, then in a full fledged invasion by the Russians. He's only asking for the tools to defend his country from obliteration. He's not asking for bodies. He's fighting for his country's sovereignty. Now he's being asked to give up a chunk of his bank account (rare earth minerals etc) but he wants ironclad guarantees because he knows how well the Russians honored the last guarantee.
Remember he sees daily his country is having its hospitals and schools and residential units and power grid routinely blown up by rocket attacks. He also knows a Russian takeover means certain death to a big chunk of Ukrainians, through arrests and unfortunate falls from windows.

For less than 5% of its DoD budget the USA was able to knock out a third of the Russian army. One of the best investments it has ever made. Plus it's learning from the Ukrainians new tactics.

The framing of this in that white house "discussion" disturbs me. It's like there is a sense this war with Ukraine v Russia was 2 blokes going the biff in a bar fight. But this was an invasion, more like a mob of blokes attacking someone on their front lawn. And the bloke forced into a fight on his lawn is the problem? There is no war if the Russians leave Ukraine. So somehow it's Zelenskyy who is fighting for his country's freedom with the Russian army inside his country attacking his army AND civilians is somehow the one prolonging this? If he stops fighting he and his country are doomed.

That's why he's willing to resign and/or give up the minerals but he wants an ironclad guarantee. He remembers the last guarantee.
Every country in that region has a history with the Russians. None of it is good.

Now a side effect of Trump walking away is all of the US allies in Asia are shitting their pants as they realize US security guarantees mean nothing. Or will be amended to look like a protection racket. This will lead to nuclear proliferation as it seems the only way to stop invading powers is to have nukes. The south Koreans have been advocating for nukes but the Biden administration said we got your back, no need for you to have your own nukes. Now that a USA security guarantee is worth shit, what do you do?
Either open the door for china, let them bully and pillage your resources, or Japan, south Korea, Australia etc will want and try to obtain their own nukes. Likely followed by every other country on earth.

And more nukes = more chance one gets free and finds it's way into some terrorist group.
No offense, I have been reading this same exact post for two years now. I think there is this perverse almost homicidal determination to want to encourage the Ukrainians to keep fighting without a clear end in sight.
 
Last edited:

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
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No offense, I have been reading this same exact post for two years now. I think there is this perverse almost homicidal determination to want to encourage the Ukrainians to keep fighting without an end.
I Imagine many were saying the same to and about those damn uppity colonists in the Americas in 1775ish.....
 
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