Israel at war
- Thread starter Butler1000
- Start date
Or this simply one more in a line of situations where a logical argument just flies waaay over your head. You repeatedly demonstrate your lack of understanding logic. It's not just when you try debating with me. LOL.
If that's your only three measures and you don't think any difference in degree of support of any of those things counts, then you are right - they are identical.
Like I said, there are people who think there is no difference between the parties because both support private insurance - it doesn't matter what form that insurance takes.
There are people who think that both parties are the same because both support income taxes, regardless of the rates or tax schemes.
That's your right.
Some people think there is a difference between doing nothing and making it worse.
But I get it - for some people there is no difference between cutting off humanitarian aid and not giving enough of it.
I didn't say it was "support for Trump".
I said it was helping Trump win or deciding Trump winning and all that happens isn't as important as Biden losing.
And they have NO ability to produce a result that isn't Biden or Trump.
So therefore their decision is to decide how much they influence the choice one way or another given which of the two results they would prefer.
They can claim they are voting "anti-both" as much as they like.
It's just not what they are actually accomplishing.
This isn't complicated. In fact, most people figure this out. Why do you think third party voting rates are so low, and more importantly, go back down the next election after they go up?
Because people figure out the consequences of what they did and how it isn't what they wanted.
I get it.
You don't understand voting in a plurality system.
I have been avoiding putting in the work doing a series of posts educating people on this, but I may just have to.
This is nonsense.
You don't believe that, though.
You've repeatedly talked about how marketing and perception are what matter, not results.
Not at all.
My position is you should know what you are doing with your vote and choose according to the outcome you want to achieve.
I fully expect Trump to make it worse.
I didn't realize you thought the US has no power to affect the Israel situation at all.
Interesting.
But let's accept your premise - Absolutely nothing you do can affect US policy on Israel.
There is no difference in any way whatsoever between Biden and Trump.
So therefore, since your vote can't affect that at all, your decision about who to vote for should be made on all their other policies, no?
I do know people like Butler think there is no difference on any policy front in any way between the two parties.
Others disagree.
You slept through Trump's administration concerning Israel, didn't you?
Exactly.
So voting as if that isn't true would be stupid, wouldn't it?
Yes.
And that has an effect on the result.
I don't know why you have such a problem understanding that.
Yes.This is also not about plurality voting. This is about your characterization of a 3rd party vote as being SOLELY anti-Biden, when it is both anti-Biden and anti-Trump.
And if your argument is going to be that you are characterizing it that way because that particular voter, would have otherwise voted for Biden, well, that is how elections work. Policy positions change votes.
And the choice there is "I am so Anti-Biden that I am ok with Trump winning."
Because there is no "But I'm not supporting Trump" in the system as it is set up.
Is it doing less to try and get Trump to win than if you voted for Trump directly?
Yes.
But it is still voting in a way to help Trump win, because the only way to not help Trump win if you would otherwise prefer Biden is to vote for Biden.
That's just the math of the system.
Now, you have said that you see no difference between the two so it honestly doesn't matter and there are people who believe that and then the third party vote or staying home is perfectly rational.
They don't care about who wins, so they don't vote to affect the winner.
But anyone who DOES care about who wins in any way is choosing between the two by voting or not voting.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
The way you shouldn't be let off the hook for admitting that you think Israel is likely committing genocide yet you also want to 'reward' Biden for his active aid of genocide.
You have yet to tell us how voting for Biden will help change the system or what your plan is to change the system.
I've noted multiple ways I've supported changing the system, you have dismissed all of them and proposed nothing.
Why?
Wow, I'm truly shocked at how politically naive you are with this post.
Your post infers you believe that Biden is somehow holding back the genocide and slowing it down, as if Biden's continual statements saying he supports a ceasefire and the two state solution are actually honest. As if those statements were followed by even the simplest actions. Every move by Biden so far has been to try to publicly show he is for peace while ever legislative move has been to arm and enable the genocide.
Short of sending in US bombers and nukes, there is little that rump could do that would be worse in the support of this genocide.
Biden has been trying to play both sides throughout, to publicly declare he's for peace while blocking all actions that can stop the genocide. Trump isn't smart enough to pull that off and doesn't care about issues other than his own fortune and popularity. He would have likely dropped support for Israel after the protests the way he dropped support for vaccines after his base became anti vaxxers.
You mean minorities and youth?
You mean progressive dems?
What you have been doing is watching Biden's reelection chances become worse and worse so keep trying to convince people that rump is worse than genocide. That its 'pragmatic' to support genocide because of your fear of what rump might do with a second presidency.
What you have not done is to admit that Biden's support of Israel is wrong, that the party needs to change and how to change it. Even though you have admitted that Israel is likely committing genocide you have not said that they are wrong to do so and the US is wrong to aid the genocide of Gaza.
Meanwhile, people are doing what they can.
zionists continue to act like nazis.
How am I "rewarding" Biden for this choice?
That only makes sense if you don't view the election as a choice between two options, but as a "reward/punish" structure.
Which I don't, because it is a very stupid way to view elections.
Voting for Biden won't change the system.
The voting part isn't about changing the system.
That pressure happens outside and through other venues.
Only when you've got some leverage and action via the other methods of civic action is voting going to come into play because you need a government to implement those changes.
Civil Rights was a massive change to the system - it wasn't won by voting first, then producing change.
It was won by pushing for change and then voting for governments who would support that change.
It's like labor activism - the primary mode is through labor action, but it the government aligns with corporations to crush strikes, then that labor action is doomed.
So no you don't get the system changed firstly through voting, but voting is an important part of what goes on.
Because this is a discussion about why "Making sure Biden loses" or "Voting third party to teach the Dems a lesson" isn't about changing the system.
That will do nothing at all to change the electoral system.
It certainly isn't about changing foreign policy or helping the Palestinians.
Even on your most anti-Biden rants, you can't say putting Trump into power will improve anything about any of the issues you claim to care about here.
I mean exactly what I said I mean.
You yourself have admitted that voting Trump in doesn't stop the genocide or affect it in any way.
Therefore, obviously, by your own calculation - this isn't a vote between "Trump or Genocide".
If that is what you truly believe, then the only reason to not vote Biden (if you think the Genocide is the only issue anyone should vote on) is to punish Biden for being president during the genocide.
Since you yourself admit nothing changes by doing this, then you are stating - quite clearly - that punishing Biden is more important than anything Trump will do as President.
You did, for a while, try to pitch the "We don't know the future so maybe Trump will be better about Israel/Palestine" argument.
You seem to have abandoned that, though.
My question to you, again and again, has been what helping Trump win gains you - even if the only issue in the world you care about is the Israel-Palestine situation.
My answer to that is "nothing" - it gains you absolutely nothing outside of an emotional satisfaction in "not supporting genocide" or the emotional satisfaction of "making Biden lose".
That would only apply if Trump was offering a better deal on Israel Palestine.
Then my choice would be "Do I support genocide to keep Trump out of power or not".
But since Trump isn't offering to do better - in fact he is saying the US isn't supporting Israel enough (and his past history involves cutting off humanitarian aid and no longer classifying settlements as illegal and other actions showing he is likely to follow through on the "we should do more to help the Israeli right wing's ambitions"). So therefore there is no "It is pragmatic to support genocide because of fear of what a Trump administration will do". The genocide is completely off the table in the election.
So again, even if the ONLY ISSUE I CARE ABOUT is the genocide, there is no reason to help Trump win.
I have repeatedly said his policy is wrong, in fact it is indefensible.
What I have said is that voting third party and putting Trump into power will not change it.
I get that it really upsets you that things don't work that way, but you pouting doesn't
Another reason you support making sure Biden loses and putting Trump in charge, I suppose, since he has promised to crack down on people dong this in the US.
Trump Plan for Pro-Palestinian Protesters: “Throw Them Out of the Country”
Trump made clear to wealthy donors behind closed doors that he won’t draw any red lines on Gaza if reelected—as Biden struggles to make clear what his red line is.www.vanityfair.com
“If you get me elected, and you should really be doing this … we’re going to set that movement back 25 or 30 years,” Trump said
You think this is Israel with no restraints?
Dear god.
Because you just said that "Degree of support, etc are either inconsequential and minor, or are purely rhetoric and talking points that do not result in changes to the status quo that is very much needed."
In other words, there is nothing that can be done.
Then you should be EXTREMELY interested in every shift in degree of support, since it has such an important impact.
Humanitarian aid is minor now?
Nothing has tangible impact?
Interesting how the people on the ground there seem to disagree with you so completely.
So therefore no one should be voting between Biden or Trump based on Gaza.
Got it.
On those two specific votes?
No.
Which, if you think those the only two things that have any impact on Gaza, means you shouldn't let Gaza influence your vote between Trump or Biden in any way.
I get it!
You think there is no reason to use the Gaza situation to choose between Trump and Biden!
Anyone doing so is a fool!
You've made your point.
Idiot voters vote their conscience in a plurality system.
That's one of those politically naive myths told to voters so that they don't exercise power efficiently.
It's one of the worst things you can do since it is more likely to actively hurt your cause than help it.
What an amazingly self-defeating way to think about elections.
Oh.
You mean "voting their conscience" to mean "voting to get the best result they can"!
Then you agree with me about voting and we are back to "nothing I do will change this outcome I find important, so I should vote on other criteria".
Again, a strong argument that no one should vote on the Israel/Palestine issue at all.
Because as long as you fail to understand math, I have to point out what is actually going on.
It is true, sorry.
Yes, you've established you don't understand how the system works.
You don't need to dig your hole deeper.
Of course not.
Wait, you think a vote is "an expression of your opinions"?
Oh dear.
Of course the position of candidates sways votes and things sway the voter more than others.
That's the whole point of what we are discussing.
Oh, you REALLY don't understand how the plurality system works at all!
Which between Chow and Bailão did you prefer?
Man, I am going to have to do this "voting systems education series", aren't I?
sigh
Yet you were the one that brought up this language when you claimed it would be 'punishing' Biden to not vote for him just cuz he's aiding a genocide.
Yet you also don't propose any change to the system, are lukewarm at best to protests to change the system and seem to be against pressuring the party to back the progressives and enact change.
Biden losing over support for genocide will be part of long term change, you are focused entirely on the next 4 years.
