Israel at war
- Thread starter Butler1000
- Start date
So neither of you are paying attention?
No worries about Trump's call for Israel to "Finish the job"?
The calls from Israel about how much Biden is hampering the war effort?
Trump's advisors calling for Palestinian expulsion from Gaza and full annexation of the West bank?
Trump's support and encouragement of war crimes as the best way to win? (Especially war crimes against Muslims.)
Or we can review some of Trump’s policy toward the Palestinians when in office.
- His government declared that it no longer considered the settlements to be illegal.
- Senior Trump administration officials questioned Palestinians’ ability to govern themselves.
- The Trump “peace plan” was negotiating only with Israel — the Palestinians were not included.
- He ended U.S. aid to Palestinians for things like hospitals, infrastructure and schools.
So yeah, the parties aren't the same, even here.
This is almost as dumb as people saying "The Democrats didn't do universal health care - there is no difference between the parties!".
No they aren't.
Or rather, they have to not understand the system they are voting in to believe that.
(Which, to be fair, is a problem. Lots of people are badly confused about this.)
So yes, they might be doing that in terms of "that is what they feel".
It just isn't actually what they are doing in terms of consequence.
But even using your logic, it is still them saying that either they have no preference between Biden and Trump on any issue or in any way - since those are the only two possible winners and refusing to pick one means you are refusing to distinguish - or that while they DO have a preference for one or the other on policy, it is more important that the one they would normally support lose.
Yes, I am, because that is the frame of the discussion.
Are there people who would prefer Trump in most ways, but because Trump is so pro-Israel they are not going to vote for him?
Maybe!
And they would also be acting stupidly from their point of view if they actually preferred Trump.
Remember, what is happening here is you are taking your vote away from the result you want.
So again, either you TRULY have no preference in any way between the two, or you do and are deluded about the effects of what you are doing with your vote.
Could there be a Trump supporter who is all in on Trump's policies but finds him too pro-Israel and so will vote third party?
Maybe!
But then they will also be doing exactly what I am saying, which is that they are ok contributing to Biden's victory. (Only more indirectly.)
So no difference. Because when you get past the lip service its the same. Israel will always get its military funding, no matter what.
Results matter. Stop gaslighting. The Democrats are lying.
This is the reason people won’t vote for Genocide Joe.
Dude. There is literally no difference. Just stop. It's why he has lost the Muslim vote. Why the Muslim Democrat mayors in Michigan refused to meet with any party officials for support for Biden.
Buden is old school full in Israel supporter. He will let them wipe out Gaza if they choose to. Just stop. This lying just kills your credibility.
Which even rhetorically is not the same thing.
That's before you get into actual policy.
You think a Trump administration and a Biden administration are going to work the same at the UN?
Oh dear.
So, you don't follow Israel-Palestine politics at all?
Your understanding is entirely limited to military aid and "political support" which you can't define?
Well, that explains a lot.
No.
I am talking specifically about pro-Palestinians who would otherwise vote for Biden.
Obviously they wouldn't ALL vote for Biden otherwise.
I'm talking specifically about people who would prefer Biden's policies otherwise and will not vote for him because of this issue.
People who would never vote for either party because they have no policy issues they like or care about are already out of the equation.
The point I am making is that "voting third party" or "not voting" is ALWAYS indirectly a vote for one or another of the major parties if (and only if) you have any interest in any difference between the two parties.
If you truly and honestly see absolutely no difference in any issue between the parties, then it is a wash.
The moment you have a preference for ANYTHING between the two parties, then your vote for third party is a vote against the policies you claim you actually support.
All I have been trying to get people to admit, repeatedly, is that a vote for third party is an acknowledgement of that decision.
There are some very rare people who truly see no difference in any way between parties.
But lots of people just don't want to admit their revealed preferences and want to vote third party so that "their hands are clean".
No.
Voting third party when that party can't win isn't "a vote against both of the others" because it doesn't affect them. It's an entirely irrelevant vote in the actual structure of the election.
The only thing that matters is the vote differential between the two possible winners.
Who your vote would go to if you actually had to choose is the relevant issue.
If you had ANY preference, then choosing not to put that person is power is a choice to actually put the other person in power.
This is a complete misunderstanding of how a plurality system actually works.
I didn't say he isn't an old school full-in Israel supporter.
His Israel policy is indefensible.
(Which is why - given your "Israel should commit war crimes" stance - I'm impressed by how deep your hatred for Democrats goes that you are taking the "It is bad that he is Genocide Joe" tactic here.)
It is quite possible for his policy to be indefensible and for Trump to be worse.
That you've always had trouble with anything more complicated than "People me like = Good! People me don't like = Bad!" doesn't change that.
Lol. Semantics. Its all about sending arms, giving UN cover, and looking the other way. Its just the GOP is honest. The Dems want the same result. But try to claim they don't.
Results matter.
His position is the Democrats are ENTITLED to their vote and DENYING them their rightful vote makes them traitors.
Or this simply one more in a line of situations where a logical argument just flies waaay over your head. You repeatedly demonstrate your lack of understanding logic. It's not just when you try debating with me. LOL.
If that's your only three measures and you don't think any difference in degree of support of any of those things counts, then you are right - they are identical.
Like I said, there are people who think there is no difference between the parties because both support private insurance - it doesn't matter what form that insurance takes.
There are people who think that both parties are the same because both support income taxes, regardless of the rates or tax schemes.
That's your right.
Some people think there is a difference between doing nothing and making it worse.
But I get it - for some people there is no difference between cutting off humanitarian aid and not giving enough of it.
I didn't say it was "support for Trump".
I said it was helping Trump win or deciding Trump winning and all that happens isn't as important as Biden losing.
And they have NO ability to produce a result that isn't Biden or Trump.
So therefore their decision is to decide how much they influence the choice one way or another given which of the two results they would prefer.
They can claim they are voting "anti-both" as much as they like.
It's just not what they are actually accomplishing.
This isn't complicated. In fact, most people figure this out. Why do you think third party voting rates are so low, and more importantly, go back down the next election after they go up?
Because people figure out the consequences of what they did and how it isn't what they wanted.
I get it.
You don't understand voting in a plurality system.
I have been avoiding putting in the work doing a series of posts educating people on this, but I may just have to.
This is nonsense.
You don't believe that, though.
You've repeatedly talked about how marketing and perception are what matter, not results.
Not at all.
My position is you should know what you are doing with your vote and choose according to the outcome you want to achieve.
