Israel at war
- Thread starter Butler1000
- Start date
Voting is about influencing who gets in power.
When there are only two results possible, everything you do is a choice about which of those outcomes you prefer.
That it might also provide some additional information is an add on effect. (And, again, one that is handled badly by plurality voting.)
There are LOTS of reasons I harp on about better voting systems and one is that I want people to have more meaningful choices.
This is an incredibly bad way to look at voting in a system where doing so results in worse outcomes.
Voting is a method to determine government, not a plebiscite about the sentiment of the people.
That people still believe that voting is supposed to be about your personal feelings about your vote is a pernicious myth and the quicker people can be disabused of this notion the better.
Not at all.
It hurts whoever of the two you would vote for if forced to choose.
Now, if what you are saying is that in a normal situation between Trump and Biden, you would choose Trump then yes, your choice to vote for West hurts Trump.
But the real issue isn't "who does it hurt". It is "which outcome do you prefer"?
If your preferred outcome is Trump over Biden, then voting for West hurts Trump. If your preferred outcome is Biden over Trump, then voting for West hurts Biden.
The important part is that voting for West hurts you because it makes your preferred outcome less likely.
And produce an outcome.
Now, if you truly believe there is absolutely no difference between Trump and Biden on Palestine, then your vote is rational.
If, however, you believe there is (even if both are bad), then you have made the situation worse because instead of putting the person in who gives you a result you prefer, you deprived them of your vote.
And that is, of course, an assumption that you have no preferences in any other way between the two people who might win.
If you have any other preferences between the two, then you have the same dilemma, even if you think they are exactly equal in all ways on the issue of Palestine.
EXACTLY!
As I said above. "Voting your conscience" is detrimental for you.
This is key to why plurality voting is so reviled.
The only benefit it gives is you being able to say "I voted my conscience" while it actively contributes to making the situation you had a conscience about worse.
(Now yes, there is an argument that it is a long-term strategy. Making the situation worse will cause enough people to suffer that eventually someone will do the right thing about it. I don't think that's a good argument, but it is at least one that doesn't pretend the system is something other than it is.)
See above.
This is entirely the wrong way to think about voting, especially in a plurality winner system.
That isn't case closed at all and you know it.
You are absolutely interpreting things.
No, I'm not.
Look.
This is easy to settle.
Show the whole clip.
I think it is very likely he said something every bit as genocidal as you say.
But no one should take an edited clip on the internet without skepticism.
Who gets to power is the inevitable result of voting. The primary purpose of voting however is to exercise your opinion, representing your opinions, per your conscience and per what is important to you.
The sentiment of the people should be represented in the government. That is the purpose of voting. It is about representation that you would other wise not have in a non-democratic system. They say for the people, by the people for a reason. Also the notion of "worse outcomes" is relative. A Trump voter's best outcome is for Trump to get to power. But when your choice isn't Trump or Biden you have to either not vote at all, or vote for someone else.
As it stands now if there was no other choice than Trump or Biden, meaning there were only 2 choices, I would choose to not vote at all. My preferred outcome is neither Trump, nor Biden. So no, your logic doesn't stand scrutiny. My vote for West, for example, would hurt both Biden and Trump equally and your accusation of it helping Trump falls flat.
And infact, my "intent" here does not matter at all because that isn't going to actually have an impact on anything - as it is merely a thought. The practical implication of me voting for West, would inevitably hurt both Biden and Trump equally.
Yes I said that before. But, you are fundamentally wrong in saying that my vote for West, is support for Trump. It is not. If Trump was pro-Palestinian, I would just vote for him. Why would I vote for West? If Biden was pro-Palestinian I would vote for him. But in this case both aren't, so my choice is to vote for West and not give either Trump or Biden the vote. Both of them are detrimental to the Palestinian cause and won't do anything to make it better.
As I said you are being presumptuous that one is detrimental and the other isn't, or at the very least that one is more detrimental than the other. I consider both detrimental to the Palestinian cause. The only right thing to do in this case is to vote your conscience, and vote for someone else.
Interpreting is giving meaning to something. I am not. Those were sentences he said and it was translated and I copy pasted the translation. The meaning of that translation is clear. Genocidal intent.
The whole clip would be reasonable to ask had his sentences been edited in the middle and words taken out of context - similar to that video of Joe Rogan saying the N word where only the N word was presented but not the entire sentence he used it in (It is still not okay to use the N word, but the purpose of the edited clip was to make him look white supremacist or whatever which I dont think he is).
In this case his entire sentence and the translation was provided.
Trump is likely to be elected without the majority of Americans voting for him, just like last time.
Oh Butler.
You aren't silly enough to think this is how I would try to persuade voters do you?
This is TERB where none of you vote.
LOL!
That's a new version of the "We just need to beat them until they accept my point of view" approach you prefer.
Nice.
Glad you posted his. Now we can identify the officer.
The latest from POS Nation. Is anyone surprised?
Genocide has many costs
www.ynetnews.com
The countries, companies boycotting Israel and the damage caused
Analysis: Following months of mostly empty threats, companies sever ties with Israeli firms due to the war in Gaza, often because of pro-Palestinian college demonstrators exerting enormous pressure to end all financial interaction with Israel
www.ynetnews.com
It might.
But we don't know how many votes are lost there.
It will be an absolute push by Trump and his company to get people to sit out the vote there because it is a break point.
But as shown in the various polls Frank linked to, it doesn't seem to be the prime factor driving votes.
It isn't like Biden changing his Israel position means he wins the election.
Because not voting is counter productive.
Also, you are under some sort of delusion that I think voting is the only thing people should do and the system of voting shouldn't be changed.
So you agree that my arguments about who to vote for would be based on who is running?
Thanks.
I'm glad.
I got the impression you were arguing that I am just making up a fake claim about the consequences to get my person in power and am every bit as bad as MAGA for doing that.
I'm glad I misunderstood that.
You mean the massive, blowout loss of McGovern as a peace candidate in 1972 made the Dems more warlike for the next generation or so because they got systematically crushed in Presidential elections for 20 years and only won once in the aftermath of Watergate?
You are the one who said that refusing to vote for him was to punish him.
Well, you dropped that pretty quickly when I called you on it, but Katiyula is sticking to it.
The Dems must lose to teach the Dems a lesson - just like you said happened during the Vietnam era.
it is confirmed! Terrorist Chronicle aka Palestine Chronicle was involved in holding hostages
IDF confirms: 3 hostages held by Palestinian ‘journalist’ and Hamas operative who was killed during rescue
Three of the four Israeli hostages rescued on Saturday were held in the home of a Palestinian journalist and operative of the Hamas terror group, the Israel Defense Forces confirmed on Sunday evening.
“After investigations by the IDF and Shin Bet, it can be confirmed that Abdullah al-Jamal was an operative of the terrorist organization Hamas, who held the abductees Almog Meir, Andrey Kozlov and Shlomi Ziv in his family home in Nuseirat,” the IDF stated.
“This is further proof that the terrorist organization Hamas uses the civilian population as a human shield.”
The statement partly confirmed assertions by Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor (EMHRM) Chairman Ramy Abdu on social media.
Soon after the rescue operation on Saturday, Abdu claimed that IDF soldiers killed several members of the al-Jamal family in their home during the raid, including Abdullah’s father, who was a medical doctor, and several women.
This statement fueled speculation that the home was used to hold Noa Argamani, who revealed after her rescue that she had been kept in the private residence of a well-off family.
The IDF later denied this, stating that the three male hostages were held there.
Eitan Fischberger, a Middle East analyst and journalist, commented on Abdu’s original post, adding several details about Abdullah al-Jamal’s dual work as a journalist and Hamas member.
Al-Jamal reportedly worked as a freelance journalist and was a former writer for Al-Jazeera News, among other outlets. In addition, he functioned as the spokesman for Hamas’ Ministry of Labor in the Gaza Strip.
Al Jazeera later claimed that al-Jamal "is not related to us at all and did not work in the past or present for Al Jazeera" and denied the "malicious rumors." Despite this, al-Jamal's name appeared on the channel's website as a contributor.
During the war, al-Jamal mainly wrote a blog for the U.S.-based tax-exempt 501(c)(3) organization, The Palestine Chronicle, accusing Israeli soldiers of murders and massacres. He apparently continued his work while holding three Israeli hostages in his family home.
Fischberger also found al-Jamal’s Facebook posts from Oct. 7, when he praised God for his “promised victory.”
Abdu describes himself as an assistant professor of Law and Finance and is a veteran anti-Israel activist. According to NGO Monitor, in 2013, the Israeli Defense Ministry called him one of the “main operatives” for institutions considered by Israel to be fronts for Hamas in Europe.
“The Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor is an ideological advocacy NGO led by Palestinians alleged by Israel to be linked to Hamas. The organization uses the facade of human rights and focuses primarily on demonizing Israel, with no publicly available information on its budget or funding sources,” NGO Monitor wrote on their page.
“The repeated allegations directed at Israel, including accusations of ‘organ theft,’ as well as ‘genocide,’ ‘ethnic cleansing,’ ‘collective punishment,’ are not supported by evidence.”
IDF confirms: 3 hostages held by Palestinian ‘journalist’ and Hamas operative who was killed during rescue | All Israel News
IDF confirms: 3 hostages held by Palestinian ‘journalist’ and Hamas operative who was killed during rescue
Three of the four Israeli hostages rescued on Saturday were held in the home of a Palestinian journalist and operative of the Hamas terror group, the Israel Defense Forces confirmed on Sunday evening.
“After investigations by the IDF and Shin Bet, it can be confirmed that Abdullah al-Jamal was an operative of the terrorist organization Hamas, who held the abductees Almog Meir, Andrey Kozlov and Shlomi Ziv in his family home in Nuseirat,” the IDF stated.
“This is further proof that the terrorist organization Hamas uses the civilian population as a human shield.”
The statement partly confirmed assertions by Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor (EMHRM) Chairman Ramy Abdu on social media.
Soon after the rescue operation on Saturday, Abdu claimed that IDF soldiers killed several members of the al-Jamal family in their home during the raid, including Abdullah’s father, who was a medical doctor, and several women.
This statement fueled speculation that the home was used to hold Noa Argamani, who revealed after her rescue that she had been kept in the private residence of a well-off family.
The IDF later denied this, stating that the three male hostages were held there.
Eitan Fischberger, a Middle East analyst and journalist, commented on Abdu’s original post, adding several details about Abdullah al-Jamal’s dual work as a journalist and Hamas member.
Al-Jamal reportedly worked as a freelance journalist and was a former writer for Al-Jazeera News, among other outlets. In addition, he functioned as the spokesman for Hamas’ Ministry of Labor in the Gaza Strip.
Al Jazeera later claimed that al-Jamal "is not related to us at all and did not work in the past or present for Al Jazeera" and denied the "malicious rumors." Despite this, al-Jamal's name appeared on the channel's website as a contributor.
During the war, al-Jamal mainly wrote a blog for the U.S.-based tax-exempt 501(c)(3) organization, The Palestine Chronicle, accusing Israeli soldiers of murders and massacres. He apparently continued his work while holding three Israeli hostages in his family home.
Fischberger also found al-Jamal’s Facebook posts from Oct. 7, when he praised God for his “promised victory.”
Abdu describes himself as an assistant professor of Law and Finance and is a veteran anti-Israel activist. According to NGO Monitor, in 2013, the Israeli Defense Ministry called him one of the “main operatives” for institutions considered by Israel to be fronts for Hamas in Europe.
“The Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor is an ideological advocacy NGO led by Palestinians alleged by Israel to be linked to Hamas. The organization uses the facade of human rights and focuses primarily on demonizing Israel, with no publicly available information on its budget or funding sources,” NGO Monitor wrote on their page.
“The repeated allegations directed at Israel, including accusations of ‘organ theft,’ as well as ‘genocide,’ ‘ethnic cleansing,’ ‘collective punishment,’ are not supported by evidence.”
IDF confirms: 3 hostages held by Palestinian ‘journalist’ and Hamas operative who was killed during rescue | All Israel News
The reason the Dems are relying on is "Where else ya gonna go" when it comes to minorities. It's the one they have been using for decades. Well the polling is clearly suggesting they are willing to walk away anyway and see things get worse hoping it gets better later. Hispanics, Black men, Muslims, Young people are now willing in game changing percentages to stay home, vote Trump, or third party. Not because of anything I've said, but because of what Democrats have, of have not done depending on the question.
They have become so bad in many eyes Trump is a viable alternative for 4 years. Blaming voters is not the answer.
I'm sure you do, and don't even realize you do. You can't help yourself. You do it to anyone who attacks the Dems with legitimate attacks.
You try to obfuscate policy with procedural bullshiting. The premise being they have, and never will have choice. Well they do. And more are will to leave the Dems as a useless exercise in voting.
As usual, all you do is repost unrelated tweets, Geno. No direct responses from you..........ever.
