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Israel at war

Kautilya

It Doesn't Matter What You Think!
May 12, 2023
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As I've said before. We have two sides who will never come to the table. Ever. And there is no way I will ever approve of spending blood and treasure to try to get them to see reason. The Palestinians chose Iranian Shia muslims and their allies. Who are hated by all the other Sunni muslims in the region. They chose Terrorism, violence, even support of assassination and coups. And really have just been used as pawns. They are the authors of their own problems.

So feel free to pick a side. Either way one is, in the long run, going to see a winner and a loser. That's how this ends.
That is a different discussion. I am talking about what we see in the west in the media, in what politicians say that influence public opinion etc., You said they don't share our values.

Firstly there is a lot to unpack there because the west itself has engaged in horrible wars in the middle east where they have brutalized, tortured, unlawfully detained and sent people to concentration camps such as Guantanamo, thereby denying them due process which is an inherent part of western democratic values. They are also human rights violations which you said were western values. So the west itself has behaved in ways that violate our values.

Secondly even if you were to argue that the Muslims in the middle east don't share our values, that would not change the fact that we'd be guided by our own values. And if we were we'd find it very easy to collectively call Israel's actions genocide and terminate all relations with the genocidal state. But we clearly don't and instead cheer them on. Which would indicate to me that these are values we value for the purposes of rhetoric only.

On both counts that line of reasoning fails. The only one that stands up to scrutiny is the very reasonable assertion that quite simply as a society we have our biases and that we are no different than the Palestinians or Muslims from the middle east whether or not we throw LGBTQ people off of roof tops, or are engaged in sectarian conflict. We just engage in different internal conflicts and practice a different kind of oppression.
You seem to think anybody that argues with you "hate" muslims. I have tons of Muslim friends and no, I don't try to change or challenge their beliefs...there are good people in the Islam community. The conflict here isn't Palestinians vs. Jews...It's Terrorists vs. Israel...Hamas objective isn't to free the Palestinians...it's to eradicate Israel. You simply can't get everyone get behind you if you target civilians then cry victim when you receive retaliation... Hamas won't solve the Palestinians problems...it magnified it 100x...
I don't care about Hamas. I have already said that Hamas needs to be taken out. But people on this thread and on social media, even politicians have repeatedly conflated Palestinians with Hamas and terrorism. That is what am referring to.
 

Klatuu

Well-known member
Dec 31, 2022
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You seem to think anybody that argues with you "hate" muslims. I have tons of Muslim friends and no, I don't try to change or challenge their beliefs...there are good people in the Islam community. The conflict here isn't Palestinians vs. Jews...It's Terrorists vs. Israel...Hamas objective isn't to free the Palestinians...it's to eradicate Israel. You simply can't get everyone get behind you if you target civilians then cry victim when you receive retaliation... Hamas won't solve the Palestinians problems...it magnified it 100x...
Delusional
 

shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
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If that was the case we'd automatically condemn and call out the genocide that is ongoing in Gaza....
Sorry to shatter your fantasies once again, but neither of the UNGA or UNSC has passed any resolutions declaring that Israel has committed genocide. As Geno tells us, we must listen to the UN,
 
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Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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Does it also surprise you that your opinions regarding Jews is a fringe and radical position on TERB?
Why, you think the politics forum here represents Canadian values?
A reminder, 57% of the people who voted for Biden during the last election agree with me that Israel is committing genocide.
Your views are the minority.
 
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Klatuu

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Dec 31, 2022
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Actually its more like, holy crap they don't share the same values of free speech, equality of women, human rights that we do.

Seriously we haven't had a war on NA soil since 1814. That's by choice. The ME Muslims have been at perpetual war with eachother and their neighbors. Hasn't stopped. Over religion. That's also a choice.
Brainwashed. Lack of education
 
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Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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Sorry to shatter your fantasies once again, but neither of the UNGA or UNSC has passed any resolutions declaring that Israel has committed genocide. As Geno tells us, we must listen to the UN,
Sorry to keep reminding you, old guy, but that's not how the UN works.
The UN has issued reports saying the occupation is illegal, Israel is apartheid and Israel is committing genocide.

When the ICC and ICJ come calling you will be whining and declaring some other imaginary goal line.

 

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
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That is a different discussion. I am talking about what we see in the west in the media, in what politicians say that influence public opinion etc., You said they don't share our values.

Firstly there is a lot to unpack there because the west itself has engaged in horrible wars in the middle east where they have brutalized, tortured, unlawfully detained and sent people to concentration camps such as Guantanamo, thereby denying them due process which is an inherent part of western democratic values. They are also human rights violations which you said were western values. So the west itself has behaved in ways that violate our values.

Secondly even if you were to argue that the Muslims in the middle east don't share our values, that would not change the fact that we'd be guided by our own values. And if we were we'd find it very easy to collectively call Israel's actions genocide and terminate all relations with the genocidal state. But we clearly don't and instead cheer them on. Which would indicate to me that these are values we value for the purposes of rhetoric only.

On both counts that line of reasoning fails. The only one that stands up to scrutiny is the very reasonable assertion that quite simply as a society we have our biases and that we are no different than the Palestinians or Muslims from the middle east whether or not we throw LGBTQ people off of roof tops, or are engaged in sectarian conflict. We just engage in different internal conflicts and practice a different kind of oppression.

I don't care about Hamas. I have already said that Hamas needs to be taken out. But people on this thread and on social media, even politicians have repeatedly conflated Palestinians with Hamas and terrorism. That is what am referring to.
Except Islam isn't just a religion. It's a legal framework and form of government. It is a Totalitarian form of control with Big Brother at its head. It leaves no room for dissent. It is cult like in its fanaticism. It follows through with its hatred of Apostasy and being an Infidel. It is also an economic model. Whichbis also nearly the opposite of Western practices.

It is, imo, the polar opposite to the vast majority of what a Liberal Western Secular Capitalist society represents and can build upon. Which I believe is a far superior form, despite it flaws. So this goes, to me far beyond the woes of a tiny population of near fanatics, who have screwed themselves. And I do conflate Hamas and Palestinians. They birthed them, raised them, and elected them to run things. They come from their own and won't denounce them. The hide them and continue to inflate their ranks. And follow the rules of the cult.

Sorry, I have no sympathy anymore. They have had amoke opportunity to be at peace. They chose a war to the finish.
 
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Butler1000

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Frankfooter

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Except Islam isn't just a religion. It's a legal framework and form of government. It is a Totalitarian form of control with Big Brother at its head. It leaves no room for dissent. It is cult like in its fanaticism. It follows through with its hatred of Apostasy and being an Infidel. It is also an economic model. Whichbis also nearly the opposite of Western practices.
Was that post from here?
 

Klatuu

Well-known member
Dec 31, 2022
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Except Islam isn't just a religion. It's a legal framework and form of government. It is a Totalitarian form of control with Big Brother at its head. It leaves no room for dissent. It is cult like in its fanaticism. It follows through with its hatred of Apostasy and being an Infidel. It is also an economic model. Whichbis also nearly the opposite of Western practices.

It is, imo, the polar opposite to the vast majority of what a Liberal Western Secular Capitalist society represents and can build upon. Which I believe is a far superior form, despite it flaws. So this goes, to me far beyond the woes of a tiny population of near fanatics, who have screwed themselves. And I do conflate Hamas and Palestinians. They birthed them, raised them, and elected them to run things. They come from their own and won't denounce them. The hide them and continue to inflate their ranks. And follow the rules of the cult.

Sorry, I have no sympathy anymore. They have had amoke opportunity to be at peace. They chose a war to the finish.
Extreme racism. Poor education.
 

Kautilya

It Doesn't Matter What You Think!
May 12, 2023
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Actually, the vast majority of the western world completely understand the difference between Hamas, who are a terrorist organization and the Palestinian people. It's like saying that blacks conflate the KKK with all white people. It's a fallacious statement with no basis in reality And is used by some Muslims to justify their hate of the Western world and their culture.
If they do understand the difference, I do not see it in action. I dont see it on this board. I dont see it in the press and I do not see it when politicians speak about it. Hence the very valid criticism.
What is pathetic is the attempt to perpetuate this racist myth of Israel CONTROLLING the US for a few bucks. That is a trope used by anti-Semites in the same vein as Jews controlling the global banking system, Hollywood, eating babies, being cheap, having hooked noses and having death lasers.

It's patently obvious that the US supports Israel as opposed to being controlled by Israel, because Israel is the greatest ally the US has in the region and is integral to protecting US interests. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think that even you admitted this. You may have added in some mumbo jumbo about Israel having an unfair advantage or whatever, but the truth is that nobody can name another country in the region that is democratic, shares many of the same values as the US and can provide to the US what Israel does to the US. The money spent by lobbyists is a pittance compared to the value that the US assigns to Israeli support in the ME.
Israel is not a race. Israel is a multi-ethnic, multi-religious, pluralistic nation. Hence saying Israel controls politicians in the US, via their lobby groups, is not racist. Calling this anti-semitic is a tried and tested tactic used by the lobby groups because once they shut down dissent, they can do whatever they want.
Just as apartheid was a S. African invention, its' definition was misappropriated by other non-S. African entities the same way and for the same reasons that the term Zionism is now being misappropriated.
The word apartheid was a S. African invention. The crime, was not invented by them. Infact the crime today is defined by the UN. There have been plenty of regimes that have practiced apartheid and discriminated against a section of society before and after S.Africa. One example of a country that has continued to practice apartheid after S.Africa is Israel.
The Jews invented the term Zionism to represent their desire for a Jewish homeland where they could live safely. Saying that the Jews invented Anti-Zionism and is the default Jewish postion is ludicrous. Jews are automatically anti-Zionists? You're saying that Jews wanting a homeland invented a hatred for Jews wanting a homeland. Listen to yourself. What you say is preposterous. Geno thinks that all Jews in Israel are Zionists and now you're saying that the Jews in Israel are almost always anti-Zionists. "Hey Joe. Get more flour because we're running out of pretzels really fast and need to make more."

Anti-Zionism is a creation of Jew haters and anti-Semites and calling them out for being racist is not racist.
Jews did not invent Zionism. Theodre Herzl did. It was he who garnered support for Zionism in Europe by reaching out to the rich and the powerful. Meanwhile a lot of Jewish people back then were antizionists. It went against their religious principles. Hence antizionism is the default Jewish position and calling antizionism antisemitic, is antisemitic.

I will let Benjamin Moser, a Pullitzer price winning JEWISH author, educate you.

Except Islam isn't just a religion. It's a legal framework and form of government. It is a Totalitarian form of control with Big Brother at its head. It leaves no room for dissent. It is cult like in its fanaticism. It follows through with its hatred of Apostasy and being an Infidel. It is also an economic model. Whichbis also nearly the opposite of Western practices.

It is, imo, the polar opposite to the vast majority of what a Liberal Western Secular Capitalist society represents and can build upon. Which I believe is a far superior form, despite it flaws. So this goes, to me far beyond the woes of a tiny population of near fanatics, who have screwed themselves. And I do conflate Hamas and Palestinians. They birthed them, raised them, and elected them to run things. They come from their own and won't denounce them. The hide them and continue to inflate their ranks. And follow the rules of the cult.

Sorry, I have no sympathy anymore. They have had amoke opportunity to be at peace. They chose a war to the finish.
There are different sects, practices and schools of thought within Islam. There are also Muslims who are religious, not so religious, secular etc.,

Judaism also lays down the law for how you should live and govern.

No religion leaves any room for dissent. Islam is no exception.

So anything that attempts to generalize any religion, or its followers, and any negative speech based on those generalizations is racism.

Therefore both Islamophobia and Antisemitism are forms of racism.
Sorry to shatter your fantasies once again, but neither of the UNGA or UNSC has passed any resolutions declaring that Israel has committed genocide. As Geno tells us, we must listen to the UN,
As has been explained to you multiple times, the only bodies with a mandate to determine what is genocide and what isn't are the ICJ for advisory opinions, ICC to prosecute individuals for war crimes and the independent UN special rapporteurs, who provide objective reports of conditions in conflict areas. UNGA and UNSC are just countries who make politically motivated decisions. Not objective ones.
 
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