Women with extremely high standards

[Butler1000]

Exactly, and it comes on both sides. What I have little respect for is those who expect so much from others and don't ATTEMPT to hold themselves to those same standards. I would rather have a partner with a middle management job who is working on themselves and trying to get a promotion or developing skills to get a different, better career, over a pompous asshole who thinks he is perfect because he has a high power job and the income to match. But me and my partner both come from humble beginnings and worked hard on ourselves to not be part of a certain type of cycle, so we understand each other while also matching each others ambitions. I the former is more important than some people think. I have trouble relating to a trust fund kid, so while I may have been willing to date one for the perks when I was younger, at my current age, I want a partner, and like you said an equal who treats me as such.

Now, there are of course those who have done everything right in life just didn't give them the right doors to open, I of course do not mean those people when I say I have little respect for those who do not try to better themselves, but I think everyone should still have reasonable expectation of who they are likely to attract, that is the sad reality of it.

The issue imo is about how gender roles have indeed changed for women, but many women refuse to acknowledge that it means men get to change theirs as well.

Before the 1970's(and even then) men paid for things because they had the economic power. Women couldn't get bank loans, credit cards, seperate accounts, etc because it was assumed they didn't have the economic capability to pay the bills. And in a marriage a man was fully and legally responsible for any debt incurred by his spouse. Hence the rules about men having a say over a wife's credit.

As well a man's ability to pay for dates etc was a measure women used to determine(especially before no fault divorce) his ability to be a good provider in the future. Along with their chosen profession. It was very important to the courting stages.

Starting in the 80's ecomomic opportunity for a woman to go at it alone opened up. They had the legal ability to be independent. I agree with all of this. It should happen.

But what hasn't changed with that is the other side. Before men were placed under societal pressure to conform as well to a "marriage norm". Terms like "grow up, be mature" and even a Psychological term called Peter Pan syndrome were used to societally apply pressure to take a wife so she would have that economic protection and opportunity via him. And yes we did hear from our mothers, our friends wife's and more.

But now men have reached a point where they are now pushing back. If women have the capability to go it alone then men have the right to no longer choose to engage in marriage. And to "renegotiate " the terms of courtship vis a vis who pays, who asks, and more.

As well the primary places courtship started have now been banned more or less. The workplace, colleges and many public places now have very stringent rules on any romantic approachment. Younger Men quite simply don't feel comfortable approaching women in public anymore. Between legal and social consequences. I will add, my younger male relatives say in many cases women are quite mean and rude.

I won't even get into the dating apps.

What many women haven't realized is the "rights" are also RESPONSIBILITIES. I agree, have a mortgage, a CC, a loan. But they are also responsible for it. And men no longer are. Same with dating. Women(and you have to admit this) still believe men must approach first, plan things, court her, pay for everything. And if they don't, they aren't a man. This is a holdover from the pre feminist days that was a equalizer and is now being questioned. Quite simply men are expected to take all the risk, for really less and less reward. Women need to begin to also treat men as equals. And that Means taking on the DATING RISKS as well.

 

[Mr.Gr33k]

Get a legal advice and fuck the lawyer for a small fee

 

[Vera.Reis]

So, if/when you become a lawyer, you are going to expect your client(s) to provide you with lunch if a deposition goes too long? How about a trial? You plan on billing for lunch? When I spend too much time in my lawyers office, they cater a lunch for us and it never shows up on my bill. (Not that they don't all try to overbill but that's another story.) I won't be so crass as to say PROVIDERS have a decided sense of entitlement because I believe stereotypes are a sign of a small mind.

This is a ridiculous question, expecting a meal on longer appointments with a provider is industry standard, I will expect the same in other areas that I work in, the same being whatever industry standard is. You're also missing the part where it is a known requirement of booking me for 3hrs or longer as it is clearly on my website. If a client takes issue with this, they can book someone else with different requirements. I'm not sure how it is entitlement expecting the things that were required in the agreement that was made, but cool story bro.


I swear yall make arguments just to listen to yourselves without thinking through what you're saying lmao.

 

[Vera.Reis]

The issue imo is about how gender roles have indeed changed for women, but many women refuse to acknowledge that it means men get to change theirs as well.

Before the 1970's(and even then) men paid for things because they had the economic power. Women couldn't get bank loans, credit cards, seperate accounts, etc because it was assumed they didn't have the economic capability to pay the bills. And in a marriage a man was fully and legally responsible for any debt incurred by his spouse. Hence the rules about men having a say over a wife's credit.

As well a man's ability to pay for dates etc was a measure women used to determine(especially before no fault divorce) his ability to be a good provider in the future. Along with their chosen profession. It was very important to the courting stages.

Starting in the 80's ecomomic opportunity for a woman to go at it alone opened up. They had the legal ability to be independent. I agree with all of this. It should happen.

But what hasn't changed with that is the other side. Before men were placed under societal pressure to conform as well to a "marriage norm". Terms like "grow up, be mature" and even a Psychological term called Peter Pan syndrome were used to societally apply pressure to take a wife so she would have that economic protection and opportunity via him. And yes we did hear from our mothers, our friends wife's and more.

But now men have reached a point where they are now pushing back. If women have the capability to go it alone then men have the right to no longer choose to engage in marriage. And to "renegotiate " the terms of courtship vis a vis who pays, who asks, and more.

As well the primary places courtship started have now been banned more or less. The workplace, colleges and many public places now have very stringent rules on any romantic approachment. Younger Men quite simply don't feel comfortable approaching women in public anymore. Between legal and social consequences. I will add, my younger male relatives say in many cases women are quite mean and rude.

I won't even get into the dating apps.

What many women haven't realized is the "rights" are also RESPONSIBILITIES. I agree, have a mortgage, a CC, a loan. But they are also responsible for it. And men no longer are. Same with dating. Women(and you have to admit this) still believe men must approach first, plan things, court her, pay for everything. And if they don't, they aren't a man. This is a holdover from the pre feminist days that was a equalizer and is now being questioned. Quite simply men are expected to take all the risk, for really less and less reward. Women need to begin to also treat men as equals. And that Means taking on the DATING RISKS as well.

All I'm going to say is you need to read the research on who provides most of the domestic and emotional work in relationships as well as the research on who benefits the most from heterosexual domestic relationships, then come back and talk to me about equality.

My partner pays for all of our dates, and if he didnt i wouldnt date him, he had to make the decision whether that was worth it to him, but honestly it was never a discussion, he has never once even hesitated to pull out his wallet when the bill arrives. If on the first date there had been an issue there just wouldn't have been a second one. Women arent forcing men to pay for anything men who do so are choosing to, knowing that it increases their odds with that woman. But I know plenty of women who don't have these requirements, maybe the men who encounter this a lot are trying to date outside of their tax bracket, and if thats not the case, then maybe they are looking in the wrong places

 

[Butler1000]

All I'm going to say is you need to read the research on who provides most of the domestic and emotional work in relationships as well as the research on who benefits the most from heterosexual domestic relationships, then come back and talk to me about equality.

My partner pays for all of our dates, and if he didnt i wouldnt date him, he had to make the decision whether that was worth it to him, but honestly it was never a discussion, he has never once even hesitated to pull out his wallet when the bill arrives. If on the first date there had been an issue there just wouldn't have been a second one. Women arent forcing men to pay for anything men who do so are choosing to, knowing that it increases their odds with that woman. But I know plenty of women who don't have these requirements, maybe the men who encounter this a lot are trying to date outside of their tax bracket, and if thats not the case, then maybe they are looking in the wrong places

Lol. Thanks for telling on yourself. You just proved all my points about entitlement. And even added the one that men are still expected to be happy dating down, but women not.

As well those research papers are old and dated. They need to be updated. Generational change has occured. The last ten years alone have seen significant changes to relationship dymamics. Speaking to both my Gen X demographic and many others I have involvement with, in Western nations, there is much more equality then you think.

 

[Vera.Reis]

Lol. Thanks for telling on yourself. You just proved all my points about entitlement. And even added the one that men are still expected to be happy dating down, but women not.

Nope, I said they might be dating out of their tax bracketing, this doesn't mean dating down it means dating your equal, your equal being someone who has the same values as you around dating and finances. Like I said, I never had to tell my partner I expect him to pay, he just did. But given that I'm happy being single if the other option is going Dutch with a man, how am I entitled? I don't expect that a man will meet my standards, I just won't date him if he doesn't. Hopefully you have standards too, the difference is I don't hold yours against you, just realize you might not find someone who meets them, and that you'll either have to adjust or make peace with your choice, like me. The only entitled person here is actually you, you feel entitled to a certain type of partner or relationship even if you don't meet their standards, you think their standards should be set in a way that you qualify, that's entitlement.

 

[Vera.Reis]

As well those research papers are old and dated. They need to be updated. Generational change has occured. The last ten years alone have seen significant changes to relationship dymamics. Speaking to both my Gen X demographic and many others I have involvement with, in Western nations, there is much more equality then you think.

There are studies from 2023 that show these things my guy. Studies also show that divorced women (who were married to men) are far happier than married and never married women who are married to or date men..

 

[angrymime666]

I think this needs a soundtrack featuring the world’s smallest violin. Of course, opting out is your choice but it seems you are abdicating any personal responsibility for the state of your life.

Everyone makes choices in their life; and is responsible for the choices they make, male or female.

These are the choices some men are making,. No violin solo required. Some men are very happy with their choices, some not, some regret.

In what way do I abdicate personal responsibility?

 

[jeff2]

There are plenty decenting voices for Muhammad Ali, greatness is subjective. Someone might be great by their measurements and not yours. As I've said elsewhere, very few things people think are facts, are actually facts.

Alternative facts.

 

[Butler1000]

Nope, I said they might be dating out of their tax bracketing, this doesn't mean dating down it means dating your equal, your equal being someone who has the same values as you around dating and finances. Like I said, I never had to tell my partner I expect him to pay, he just did. But given that I'm happy being single if the other option is going Dutch with a man, how am I entitled? I don't expect that a man will meet my standards, I just won't date him if he doesn't. Hopefully you have standards too, the difference is I don't hold yours against you, just realize you might not find someone who meets them, and that you'll either have to adjust or make peace with your choice, like me. The only entitled person here is actually you, you feel entitled to a certain type of partner or relationship even if you don't meet their standards, you think their standards should be set in a way that you qualify, that's entitlement.

My 30 year SO and I have a very equal partnership. In all things. And it was like that when we dated. She insisted on for the most part Dutch. Then when we moved in I made more, contributed more. Then she surpassed me and I took a step back for less money, stress etc.

And my point stands. Your "standards" are in fact an entitled attitude. And yes, I would have kicked you to the curb. As I did with several others before my SO. I truly treat her as an equal. You still treat men as an ATM.

My point also stands on societal changes occuring. More and more women are complaining about men refusing to conform to their old gender roles. The one you insist they be restricted to while you enjoy release from your own. And acting like they are the prize and princess treatment their right and due.

Maybe you are good looking enough to get away with it. You are a small part of the population. The average women is going to have to change or find themselves alone.

Recently a major investment firm did a study that showed by 2030 half of all women who will be between 20-40 with be single and childless for life. They commissioned the study to advise on future investment choices. Their recommendations included....buy stock in Pet Products, Wineries, and Pharmaceutical companies with anti depressant products. Thats is a future that awaits many NA women.

 

[Butler1000]

There are studies from 2023 that show these things my guy. Studies also show that divorced women (who were married to men) are far happier than married and never married women who are married to or date men..

Bullshit. One look at the mass crying on social media, regular media, and even knowing people who got divorced they are not happy after(abuse situations excepted) There is a reason so many antidepressants are bring prescribed.

 

[Vera.Reis]

My 30 year SO and I have a very equal partnership. In all things. And it was like that when we dated. She insisted on for the most part Dutch. Then when we moved in I made more, contributed more. Then she surpassed me and I took a step back for less money, stress etc.

And my point stands. Your "standards" are in fact an entitled attitude. And yes, I would have kicked you to the curb. As I did with several others before my SO. I truly treat her as an equal. You still treat men as an ATM.

My point also stands on societal changes occuring. More and more women are complaining about men refusing to conform to their old gender roles. The one you insist they be restricted to while you enjoy release from your own. And acting like they are the prize and princess treatment their right and due.

Maybe you are good looking enough to get away with it. You are a small part of the population. The average women is going to have to change or find themselves alone.

Recently a major investment firm did a study that showed by 2030 half of all women who will be between 20-40 with be single and childless for life. They commissioned the study to advise on future investment choices. Their recommendations included....buy stock in Pet Products, Wineries, and Pharmaceutical companies with anti depressant products. Thats is a future that awaits many NA women.

Reread what I said, if the man didn't pay the first date, there would not be a second, you would never get the opportunity to kick ME to the curb, because the second I was expected to pay for dates I would have left lmao

I'm glad you found a partner that works for you, again, that is where we differ, I have no problem with you and your SO going dutch, that is both of your choices. I'm just amused at how some men are bitter that other men still WANT to provide for the women they are dating. Why are you upset that my partner likes to pay for our dates? How does this affect your life at all lol

You do know if 20-40% of women are single, equal proportions of men will also be single??? It is so weird that it is assumed women even want to be in relationships or that this is a requirement for us to be happy. I was happily single for years, and now I am happily not single, and if things end, I'll go back to being happily single! Such is life, but if neither of the estimated 20-40% of MEN AND WOMEN that are single are willing to conform to the other sexes requirements so as to not be single, then they are clearly making the choice that dating is not worth it to them and they are happier single.

 

[angrymime666]

I donno, I see plenty of women with men where I think "wtf" that guy a douche, or lazy, doesn't work hard etc

But people in general are more willing to stay single. I think the problem is people want someone at certain a level, but they aren't even attempting to get to that level as well.

I have a successful partner who makes over 6 figures, but I'm a law student who also makes good money, and I worked really hard to bring myself to a level that would make me more desirable to the type of partner I wanted

Then there's men with no ambition making less than 60k a year and not working towards promotions and think they deserve a woman who spends on average over 12k a year (averaging or large one time expenses that happen every few months like hair, botox, fillers) and countless hours on her appearance, has multiple degrees and a good job to appeal to a more desirable man.

We have an entitlement problem regardless of gender.

But as pointed about above, men use to need to just be mediocre to get a house wife, now you have to have a personality and treat women well too because they aren't reliant on you and so there's a bunch of men who watched their dads and grandpa's do shit but go to work and be assholes by had a woman still take care of them, and are expecting the same.

The flip side is the women who saw their moms and grandmas do everything around the house, raise the family and be treated like shit at best and abused at worst, and we said fuck that shit. We decided that if a man didn't bring xyz, tolerating that shit wasn't worth it. I stand on that for myself and spent large parts of my life happily single knowing what the alternative was if I settled.

And of course there are groups of women who think they can just be pretty and get everything they want, but imo at least they are doing something to make themselves more appealing even if it's not enough. Bcz if a woman was pretty but badly put together and clearly a slob, it wouldn't have the same effect on men.

At the end of day, there's people of all genders who think they don't need to work on themselves or develop a likeable personality, to deserve a quality partner those people will either need to adjust their standards, work on themselves or make peace with their decisions.

But what do I know, I'm in my 30s, my partner is in his 40s and the young people are scaring me tbh

Some of the things you mention I agree with.

Entitlement most definitely.

Your experience of men treating their wives poorly is one perspective and another perspective is that men loved their wives and family. Each is true.

I agree with you that a partner needs to bring what you want and vice versa both male and female. There is also what good a partner brings, and the bad. Problem is the bad seems to outweigh the good. Men want different things than women in a partner. Different priorities. It's a balance of the good and the bad. Sadly I don't see a good balance anymore.

I find the use of deserve a funny thing. The fact that people think they deserve anything seems a rather entitled attitude. We don't deserve shit. Despite a man or woman doing work does in no way ensure a quality partner. Improves chance of meeting person sure. Quality that's debatable.

That's great that you have a partner and your relationship works. It's dwindling phenomena.

 

[bazokajoe]

Some call it high standards, I call it looking for a free ride.

 

[jeff2]

Some of the things you mention I agree with.

Entitlement most definitely.

Your experience of men treating their wives poorly is one perspective and another perspective is that men loved their wives and family. Each is true.

I agree with you that a partner needs to bring what you want and vice versa both male and female. There is also what good a partner brings, and the bad. Problem is the bad seems to outweigh the good. Men want different things than women in a partner. Different priorities. It's a balance of the good and the bad. Sadly I don't see a good balance anymore.

I find the use of deserve a funny thing. The fact that people think they deserve anything seems a rather entitled attitude. We don't deserve shit. Despite a man or woman doing work does in no way ensure a quality partner. Improves chance of meeting person sure. Quality that's debatable.

That's great that you have a partner and your relationship works. It's dwindling phenomena.

Yeah. The priorities are different for men and women. For women, the big bad wolf has never gone away. Everyone must join the Olympics.

 

[angrymime666]

All kinds of useless men walk about calling themselves Alpha or high value men. It is embarrassing really. Anyone that says shit like that is just confessing how pathetic they are. Whatever happened to keeping your teenage ego in check and having people judge you by you actions and character?

Vera is right. Women don’t need men like they once did. They have their own incomes and their own aspirations. Most want a man as a companion and their equal. They don’t have to frantically search for a bread winner upon leaving high school and put up with being the junior partner in relationship for the rest of their lives. Many of them are deluded in terms of the sort of man they will partner with just as they are deluded about the type of life they will lead. Men share the same delusions about how attractive they are and the lives they deserve to lead. I walk around the grocery store in my reasonably affluent neighborhood and see tons of guys with beer guts, haven’t shaved for days, stringy beards, have a rats nest for hair (maybe kept in check by a tattered baseball cap) buying jumbo bags of Doritos I think these guys have given up on life. But then I see they have wedding rings on I think they must have won the lottery or something. It also tells me that lots of women have low, low standards and don’t act like the women in the OP.

Well thats people who like to assign labels to themselves. Perhaps a need to peacock or desire to assert status. It's a guess, but to me it appears as weakness when a person needs to publicly announce something and cannot just be.

You bring up actions and character which I am a fan of. Lack of values or more importantly congruent values between partner. A disaster if not vetted in a partner. Something people do not do long enough.

Interestingly you bring up a point. These men must offer something of value to the woman for them to stay. Perhaps like women enduring the Doritos and hair, men must deal with other undesirable traits in their partner.

 

[Vera.Reis]

Some of the things you mention I agree with.

Entitlement most definitely.

Your experience of men treating their wives poorly is one perspective and another perspective is that men loved their wives and family. Each is true.

I agree with you that a partner needs to bring what you want and vice versa both male and female. There is also what good a partner brings, and the bad. Problem is the bad seems to outweigh the good. Men want different things than women in a partner. Different priorities. It's a balance of the good and the bad. Sadly I don't see a good balance anymore.

I find the use of deserve a funny thing. The fact that people think they deserve anything seems a rather entitled attitude. We don't deserve shit. Despite a man or woman doing work does in no way ensure a quality partner. Improves chance of meeting person sure. Quality that's debatable.

That's great that you have a partner and your relationship works. It's dwindling phenomena.

Of course, I didn't say ALL or intend to imply since I said stuff like a bunch. But I particularly come from a culture with high domestic abuse rates. My parents are still together, but when my dad tried to give me shit for not being married I told him if he wanted me to get married maybe he should have been a better husband. We have a good relationship, but he was, and still is but to a lesser extent, a shit husband. There was a recent study in South West Europe about how much house work men do, and how many are away they don't do enough, portuguese men really had the audacity to say they did less than 20% with many saying they do nothing, the audacity bring that 80% knew they weren't doing enough. Like they can't even claim ignorance due to us still having a very prevalent traditional culture. So for me, if a man doesn't bring what I want to the table, a long term relationship just doesn't appeal to me.

Equilibrium will come, it has to if enough people are unhappy with being single, one group or the other, will make concessions. But given that 8/10 victims of intimate partner violence are women, I really don't think it's us who needs to change all that much. But time will tell which group decides their stance was worth changing to not be single.

But I agree no one deserves a partner and you can so everything right and just not have the luck of finding your person. But I definitely feel more for those people than the incels.

 

[jeff2]

One elephant in the room is kids. Once women have them, there is no need for the husband.

 

[angrymime666]

It's a slang that you guys are not used to hear that has nothing to do with the alphas ideology. It might not be associated to your culture but I wouldn't call Beyonce or Rihanna embarrassing or pathetic for using it. There is nothing wrong with empowering each other, in a good way. Not a condescending one. No women that call themselves queen means it in a way in which they belittle men or a group of people.

Empowerment is a feel good term in social work. It's code for I will help you and give you feel good platitudes. A person thinking themselves as a king or queen likens to being self referred as alpha.

 

[angrymime666]

same happens to men with very attractive women that are out of their league lol

Both in and out of their league. Feelings blurry our objectivity