Israel at war

shack

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What does that look like to you?

Is that the current leadership surrendering?
How much of it?
Who counts as "leadership"?
Is that everyone who has expressed support for Hamas surrendering?
How much support is enough support to count here?

What happens to Palestine after that?
Are there elections?
Does Israel rule it directly again?
Do they install a puppet government?

I think for some at least, this is the issue with the "Israel is only in there to defeat Hamas" narrative?
It's unclear what people mean by that. (And I suspect different people mean very different things.)
It will look like a time when:

Hamas is eradicated to the point that they are longer physically able to fire rockets or repeat Oct. 7.
It will be a time that Israel does not have to retaliate in self-defense
It will be a time that Gazans can live in peace with nobody stealing their humanitarian aid.
It will be a time that they can build their own infrastructure.
It will be a time that they can have free and fair elections for the first time in approx. 20 years.
 
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mandrill

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So you think political assassinations are now ok?
And you'd be ok with Iran or Hezbollah assassinating people because 'its war Frankie'?

Doesn't seem to be a war crime you won't back anymore, mandrill.
Do Asshole stuff. Expect to play by Asshole Rules.
 
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Klatuu

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It will look like a time when:

Hamas is eradicated to the point that they are longer physically able to fire rockets or repeat Oct. 7.
It will be a time that Israel does not have to retaliate in self-defense
It will be a time that Gazans can live in peace with nobody stealing their humanitarian aid.
It will be a time that they can build their own infrastructure.
It will be a time that they can have free and fair elections for the first time in approx. 20 years.
Delusional
 

shack

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Gaza death toll passes 22,000 with no let-up in fighting between Hamas and Israel troops (msn.com)


By Nidal al-Mughrabi, Arafat Barbakh and Maayan Lubell

CAIRO/GAZA/JERUSALEM (Reuters) -Israeli forces attacked Khan Younis

Israeli bombardments have reduced much of the territory to rubble and engulfed its 2.3 million residents in a humanitarian disaster in which many thousands have been left destitute and threatened by famine due to a lack of food supplies. Israeli officials say the offensive has many months to run.

In a tent camp for displaced Palestinians in Gaza's southern city of Rafah, Shadi Maarouf, his wife Safeya and their six children gathered around a campfire, braving the cold and dark.

After a perilous journey from their home in Beit Lahia in the north, constantly fleeing Israeli air strikes, they ended up in a tent in Rafah with no basic amenities.


"We have nothing. We are living in cold, as you can see. We use straps of clothes for the fire, there is no firewood," Maarouf told Reuters.

"There is no water even to clean up or wash ourselves. If I want to pray, I perform ablution using the sand. There is no drinking water. There is no tent to protect us."
It's too bad that Hamas created this situation for them.

frank, why do you want this to keep going on when a Hamas surrender would stop it immediately? It defies logic to not call for a surrender. Mind you, that is only if you actually care about the Palestinians. At this point it is a huge "if". It's looking more and more that you don't.

If you read this, do you think that Oct. 7 was a good idea? Even you said that everybody in the world knew that this would happen. Was all this death, pain and suffering worth a few hours of joy you had celebrating 1,200 Jews being killed?
 
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basketcase

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Israel has displaced 1,900,000 people in Gaza.
...
You condemn Israel because the war has caused people to be displaced while praising Hezbollah for their attacks causing people to be displaced. Franky racist hypocrisy at its best.


Iran's proxies of Hezbollah, the Houthis, and a few other groups use the Hamas attack as an excuse to go after Israel and you get upset that Israel dare fire back.

Just a reminder that the Houthis racist goals are clear from their own mouths. "God Is Great, Death to America, Death to Israel, Curse on the Jews, Victory to Islam". But you consider them the good guys.
 
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shack

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Delusional
Of course you had no actual answer. Why am I not surprised?

You're delusional if you don't think that Hamas wouldn't torture and kill you for some of the activities in which you've partaken and written about in certain review categories. And you very well know that's the truth.

They'd be fucking celebrating over your corpse. How can you support them? Or is your hatred of Jews so intense that you support anybody who also hates them even though it could cost you your life?

I think that "irrational" is a much more appropriate term than "delusional". At least irrational indicates that some though and logic went into the response instead of just another insult, which is your trademark.
 
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Klatuu

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Of course you had no actual answer. Why am I not surprised?

You're delusional if you don't think that Hamas wouldn't torture and kill you for some of the activities in which you've partaken and written about in certain review categories. And you very well know that's the truth.

They'd be fucking celebrating over your corpse. How can you support them? Or is your hatred of Jews so intense that you support anybody who also hates them even though it could cost you your life?

I think that "irrational" is a much more appropriate term than "delusional". At least irrational indicates that some though and logic went into the response instead of just another insult, which is your trademark.
Delusional
 

shack

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I am asking, of the 22000+ killed, please show us how many were Hamas. Let us please see the names. It is a reasonable request, no? After 22000 are killed, to want to know how effective the Israeli operation has been?
frank wants 500,000 to die.

How about you? Do you think that Hamas, whom you hate, should return all the hostages and surrender unilaterally so that Israel immediately stops the assault? All of their stated goals will have been reached.

It is impossible to debate against the fact that a unilateral surrender by Hamas occurs much, much faster than having to bilaterally negotiate a ceasefire before that ceasefire can be put into effect.

Israel will not enter into ceasefire at this point, so the question is, should Hamas surrender to stop the hostilities or should they keep fighting knowing that many, many more Palestinians will die.
 
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basketcase

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Firstly, I doubt PCPSR to be a reliable ...
Usual conspiracy theorist; deny any source you don't like. But it's not surprising that you are so quick to deny the voices of Palestinians as collected by a Palestinian polling agency.


I would do 2 things:

1. I would immediately end the war and instead go after Hamas leaders in targeted assassinations and air strikes.

2. I would evacuate the West Bank, and go back to the 1967 borders. I would also lift all blockades, release all illegally detained Palestinian prisoners and work to establish a sovereign state of Palestine. Of course this has to be done in stages, and I would atleast take the steps to reach that state and put forth a roadmap to realizing that end goal. And before you say Hamas or anyone else will not agree - they will. Infact, that is Hamas' demand as well, to go back to the 1967 borders - per their charter. There is no existential threat to Israel.
1. And how would you target Hamas leadership? Would you send troops into Gaza to do this? Bomb their homes? Sounds pretty much like what Israel is doing. And what was your response to Israel hitting Hamas leaders in lebanon?
2. Hamas has said they would accept a Two State peace as a TEMPORARY measure. They and 75% of Palestinians are clear that their end goal is to have a Palestinian state "from the river to the sea".
And it would be stupid for Israel to give up land without any guarantees. That's why I have always said international pressure to negotiate is the only way forward.

p.s. Olmert offered all that in 2008; a Palestinian state on all of West Bank and Gaza with 6% land swaps including a land corridor to Gaza, international oversite over the Old City and holy sites, some refugees to Israel with the rest given money to resettle in a Palestinian state, the countries they live in, or third parties like Canada (and only 10% of refuges want to live in Israel). He even offered to remove Jews from Arab neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem. Abbas walked away without even a counter-proposal and Hamas rejected the concept out of hand.
 
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