Israel at war
- Thread starter Butler1000
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You haven't found a single lie, shack. Not one.
There were about 233 reported settler terrorist attacks and 213 Palestinian deaths before October reported by B'tselem.
Database on fatalities and house demolitions
Database on fatalities and house demolitions in the Occupied Territories and Israel in the context of the conflict
That made it a year with more than the usual number killed by Israel.
Muslims killing other Muslims don't bother the lefties. How many Muslims were killed by the hands of other Muslims in Yemen, Afghanistan, Syria, etc.?
Ok.
Hitler's views on Judaism were well known in the 30s. On March 22nd, 1933, Dachau was opened. That wasn't a secret. He called for the boycott of Jewish businesses and barred them from public service that same year, all public knowledge. In 1935 racial laws stripping Jews of their status as people are passed. It was in the western news. In July of 36 Sachsenhausen was opened, in 37 is was Buchenwald, and in 1938 an international conference on Jewish immigrants was held with Western powers and Germany. Later that year was the Kristallnacht and it wasn't a secret either.
"In the spring of 1933, next to articles on Roosevelt’s first hundred days, the New Deal legislation, and the repeal of prohibition, Americans could read front-page stories about Jews being kicked out of their jobs and beaten on the streets in Germany. Dozens of American newspapers had correspondents based in Germany who sent back vivid descriptions of what they were witnessing under the new Nazi leadership.
"Americans read these articles, and despite all of their own problems, many grew concerned. Thousands of Americans attended anti-Nazi marches and rallies throughout the United States, protesting early persecutions, the boycott of Jewish stores, and Nazi book burnings. An American movement to boycott German-made goods and the stores that sold them began and lasted for nearly a decade, mainly in large cities on the east coast. And between March and May 1933, tens of thousands of people — from 29 states and Washington, DC — signed petitions calling on the new Roosevelt administration to protest Nazi persecution of the Jews.
"Hitler, who paid close attention to American press coverage, might have gone further, faster, had he not read about the American people’s disapproval. Fewer Jews might have gotten out, and America might have been less prepared to respond militarily."
Dr. Rebecca Erbelding, US Holocaust Museum
It's very likely that many people signed up because of Hitler's treatment of the Jews.
The allies new as early as 1942, long before the Germans ran away, less than a year after Hitler's "Final Solution" started. June 1st was when the first stories were published about it.
That's pure speculation. I'm sure for the vast majority it was at least a secondary issue even if it wasn't their primary reason for enlisting. Yes, that's speculation as well, but I'm basing that on the fact that the persecution of the Jewish people in the 30s was in the news and had sparked protest and outrage, on Hitler's "Final Solution" being widely reported in the news mere months after America joined the war and less than a year after it had started, and on the fact that over 1.5 million Jews were in the allied militaries fighting the Nazis. While your speculation is based on incorrectly thinking no one knew the Jews were in concentration camps or knew there was gas chambers.
Let's me be very clear here. I've spoken before about how widespread antisemitism was and how extensive Western eugenics programs were before and during the war. I'm not trying to claim there was no Jewish discrimination outside the axis powers or that antisemitism wasn't a problem everywhere. It was. What I am saying is that many people cared. Millions definitely cared. They may have not been a majority, but many people still cared.
More should have cared. They should have done more. But between the great depression, the droughts, and the fear of ending up in another great war, even the Jews and the progressives who frowned on antisemitism didn't do enough. That won't happen again, which is why you see so many western powers sending aid to both Israel and Palestine. Israel, the Israeli people, and the Jewish people are not alone. They will not be abandoned. But nor will and should people stand by while 9,000+ civilians are getting killed by the Jewish war machine.
Even the chairman of Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust Remembrance Center in Israel criticised them for wearing the yellow stars. "This act disgraces the victims of the Holocaust as well as the state of Israel. The yellow star symbolises the helplessness of the Jewish people and their being at the mercy of others. We now have an independent state and a strong army. We are the masters of our own fate. Today we will fasten to our lapel a blue and white flag, not a yellow star."
And lest you accuse him of not understanding the severity of the Oct 7th attacks or being a Hamas apologist as some have tried, he had this to say about them:
"The slaughter of Jews by Hamas on October 7th was genocidal in its intents and immeasurably brutal in its form."
The scope of the killing and death in Palestine is so disproportionate that there is no way it can be considered a Holocaust. Hamas would love to kill all the Israelis, but Israel is too strong for that. And if Israel could get international support by not being an oppressive state engaged in illegal settlement and occupation, perhaps Hamas would be getting weaker and weaker instead of stronger and stronger.
I did say it would never happen. But it's still Israel's best shot in my opinion even if they'll never do it.
There's zero chance of that happening over time if every few years Israel blows up schools, hospitals, and kill hundreds or thousands of civilians. There's a modicum of a chance of it happening over time if Israel acts with empathy and compassion towards the Palestinians.
But even if it doesn't, if there was an appetite from the international community to support Israel and retaliate against countries and groups that support and supply Hamas, the threat Hamas poses to Israelis would be minimal. Not zero, but as low as possible.
Yes, that's one of my crucial beliefs: it matters not what Israel does, Hamas will always exist.
They have been, and that's why it's no surprise support for Hamas in Gaza is so high. But killing they familiales and destroying their homes and hospitals and schools isn't going to do anything to demonstrate their education describing Israelis as evil, genocidal maniacs is wrong.
The munitions used on October 7th were Iranian-provided and had far more sophistication than what Hamas usually uses. This demonstrates an uptick in the support they are receiving.
Historically Hamas has been limited to Hamas-produced Qassam rockets. Small, weak, relatively easily intercepted by Iron Dome, and in relatively small numbers. October 7th involved Iranian Fajr3 and Fajr5 rockets or copies of them, Iranian mortar and artillery fuses, and glider attacks that would've required specialised training away from Israeli intelligence that mimic Iranian tactics.
Which is why I think the key is getting support from the international community to sanction and possibly embargo Iran and starve Hamas of the training and resources it needs to carry out these attacks.
Every country does. Every country could have a terrorist attack any day. 9/11 proved that. The solution can't be turning a city of over 2 million people into an open air prison and bombing mostly civilians every couple of years when it happens.
I believe that if Hamas' international support was ended their ability to carry our attacks will be diminished. Not only will the Israeli death tolls go back to their old numbers of a dozen or so every few years, but possibly even less.
So your solution is the forced deportation. That's a war crime. And how do you force Arab nations to accept immigrants? At a time when most western nations are dealing with immigration problems of their own and attempting to halt it drastically reduce their own immigration, they're going to force other nations to accept immigrants whether they want them or not?
Those are all borders settled by treaty or long ago internationally recognized. Only 2 nations recognize most of the Israeli conquest. Israel themselves considers much of the land "occupied territory". It has recognised in the past that it's settlements are illegal. It knows it only has a peace treaty with Egypt and none of the other nations from the 3rd and 4th Arab Israeli wars and despite agreeing to a UNTSO MAC with Syria just never showed up to any meetings.
Israel can kick all the Gazans out, it could even kick all the Palestinians out of all its territory, occupied or otherwise. That isn't going to stop Hamas terrorist attacks. I would hope a nation, and certainly bystanders like us, would be horrified at the idea of thousands of dead civilians that accomplishes nothing.
I'm not sure what your point is. Hamas isn't the only terrorist group in the world and most terrorists believe ridiculous things. I don't see that as a reason to either keep engaging in retaliatory strikes that kill thousands and change nothing or engage in genocide and hope that works.
I don't care what narrative they push. All the experts say this is about nationalism and not religion and I've yet to see Hamas say they'll leave Israel alone if they convert or Israel say they'll welcome Palestinians if they convert.
I suspect so too. I can't name a single time in history when killing someone's family and destroying their community and infrastructure made them love you and hate your enemy.
Why the attack occurred. The fictional withdrawal from Gaza for peace.
“In 2005, when then-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon decided to remove Israeli ground forces and settlers from Gaza, it was billed by many as a concession toward achieving peace, but, as his advisor Dov Weisglass explained in a 2004 interview, it was a move designed to do the exact opposite.
By keeping Gaza separate from the West Bank and ensuring Palestinian political fragmentation and a failed statelet in Gaza, Israel was creating an excuse to never make peace that it knew would be accepted. This “no-one-to-talk-to certificate,” which Weisglass said would be approved by Washington, says: “(1) There is no one to talk to. (2) As long as there is no one to talk to, the geographic status quo remains intact. (3) The certificate will be revoked only when this-and-this happens—when Palestine becomes Finland. (4) See you then, and shalom.” This approach, Weisglass added, “supplies the amount of formaldehyde that’s necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.” Netanyahu, according to the Jerusalem Post, told his associates in 2019 that propping up Hamas in Gaza would keep Palestinians divided and that “whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for” it.”
foreignpolicy.com
“In 2005, when then-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon decided to remove Israeli ground forces and settlers from Gaza, it was billed by many as a concession toward achieving peace, but, as his advisor Dov Weisglass explained in a 2004 interview, it was a move designed to do the exact opposite.
By keeping Gaza separate from the West Bank and ensuring Palestinian political fragmentation and a failed statelet in Gaza, Israel was creating an excuse to never make peace that it knew would be accepted. This “no-one-to-talk-to certificate,” which Weisglass said would be approved by Washington, says: “(1) There is no one to talk to. (2) As long as there is no one to talk to, the geographic status quo remains intact. (3) The certificate will be revoked only when this-and-this happens—when Palestine becomes Finland. (4) See you then, and shalom.” This approach, Weisglass added, “supplies the amount of formaldehyde that’s necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.” Netanyahu, according to the Jerusalem Post, told his associates in 2019 that propping up Hamas in Gaza would keep Palestinians divided and that “whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for” it.”
Can Our Leaders Avoid the Terrorism Trap?
For Israel and Palestine, the only way to break the cycle of violence is to understand the difference between justice and vengeance.
foreignpolicy.com
Ever think there was no one to talk to because Palestinians are too fractious and stupid to get along long enough to sort themselves out? Cripes Hamas isn't even a cohesive entity but several factions cobbled together. Add in a leadership with a long tradition of corruption and theft of aid, denying the people a chance at improvement. And a history of trying to overthrow host nations governments.Why the attack occurred. The fictional withdrawal from Gaza for peace.
“In 2005, when then-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon decided to remove Israeli ground forces and settlers from Gaza, it was billed by many as a concession toward achieving peace, but, as his advisor Dov Weisglass explained in a 2004 interview, it was a move designed to do the exact opposite.
By keeping Gaza separate from the West Bank and ensuring Palestinian political fragmentation and a failed statelet in Gaza, Israel was creating an excuse to never make peace that it knew would be accepted. This “no-one-to-talk-to certificate,” which Weisglass said would be approved by Washington, says: “(1) There is no one to talk to. (2) As long as there is no one to talk to, the geographic status quo remains intact. (3) The certificate will be revoked only when this-and-this happens—when Palestine becomes Finland. (4) See you then, and shalom.” This approach, Weisglass added, “supplies the amount of formaldehyde that’s necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.” Netanyahu, according to the Jerusalem Post, told his associates in 2019 that propping up Hamas in Gaza would keep Palestinians divided and that “whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for” it.”
Can Our Leaders Avoid the Terrorism Trap?
For Israel and Palestine, the only way to break the cycle of violence is to understand the difference between justice and vengeance.
Thats why no one likes, them, wants them, or is giving a single life for them.
Its worth pointing out that antisemitism wasn't the only racism at play during that time. The Brits didn't want to take in Jewish refugees so were very happy to give them Palestine because they thought even less of Palestinians.
Churchill:
It isn't about what I think would happen.
It is about you saying that you wanted no quarter given.
That has a meaning, and it means they can't surrender, you have promised to just kill them all no matter what.
That doesn't mean "hang them after a fair trial" either.
Not sure why you're changing your tune now, but anything that means you are backing off the "all war crimes all the time" attitude of yours is good.
Well, that sounds like we're back to "War crimes are easier, let's do that".
So much for my brief moment of hope for you.
That says a hell of a lot about you, doesn't it?
No. And why do you think that's the only way not to commit war crimes?
You really are going out of your way to say that the only proper way to win a war is by committing war crimes and that's just the right thing to do.
You're way out here out-hawking Hilary, hell, you may be out-hawking the Cheneys at this point.
Ahh.
"We need to commit war crimes because otherwise we are fighting with one hand behind our back."
Nice.
So are there any war crimes you are against?
Just curious.
Butler.
Pointing out that not getting younger's argument is different from the one you are making isn't "talking out of both sides of my mouth".
It's pointing out that you and he are making different arguments.
But Israel hasn't actually attacked Gaza for many years. They lived in an uneasy truce. But Gazans still hate Israel. It's ideological. Most Iranians hate the USA for instance.
The international community is not going to embargo Iran. Iran will always have support from a coterie of allies, which apparently now includes Putin's Russia.
The disturbing aspect of 7 October is that it indicates a sudden new escalation in the Middle East.
Every country doesn't have a terror attack every day because most countries are out of easy reach of potential terrorists and take extensive measures to prevent such attacks. When was the last time you visited an airport? Israel is directly across a fence from Gaza. 7 OCtober could literally occur every day.
I'm not sure it's a war crime, but it's unlikely to happen in Palestine.
Feel free to comment on what Pakistan is doing to its Afghan refugee population as we speak. They must be reading my posts in this thread.
Gripes that are 75 years old are no longer worth fighting about.
And I presume that the IDF has a plan when they go into Gaza that is more sophisticated that just blowing random buildings up. I hope at least they are going to wreck weapons stockpiles and take out command centres and military facilities.
Groan. Deja vu in the rear view mirror.
2022 Gaza–Israel clashes - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Or how about this in May of this year
“Forty military aircraft carried out a surprise bombing in violation of a ceasefire that had been implemented to quell the exchange of fire across the border.[6] The bombing commenced at 2 am local time on 9 May 2023 and lasted for approximately two hours.[6] Witnesses reported that the attack targeted a top-floor apartment in Gaza City and a house in Rafah.[6] The Palestinian health ministry confirmed the deaths of 13 individuals as a result of the bombing.[6] Among the casualties were three commanders, their wives, several children, and other bystanders.[6] Additionally, 20 people sustained injuries during the airstrikes.[6]”
May 2023 Gaza–Israel clashes - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Thanks for this.
I think the one issue I have with it is the turn back to the two-state solution.
I don't think that is viable with no one on either side wanting to push for it anymore.
There either needs to be a way of cultivating a new interest in legitimately giving it a chance, or there needs to be some one-state solution proposed (with all the issues that brings as well).
Right now, I see the latter as having more of a chance because it seems no one on either side is willing to seriously engage in the two state answer anymore.
