Jays 2023

[Adam_hadam]

Thought I would quote myself here from Thursday.

I mean the writing was on the wall when they faced Cole and King, could barely muster a hit and were shut out two games in a row.

The Big Red Machine would have been shut out with Cole's pitching gem last week. Back on topic.

If JS wasn't in charge on the field, who was? Atkins, Shapiro? Doesn't matter now.

If the Jays or any organization wants to play ball like this the hire ChatGPT as the "player decision maker".

 

[black booty lover]

The Big Red Machine would have been shut out with Cole's pitching gem last week. Back on topic.

No see that's the problem. The Jays make average pitchers looks amazing, and make good pitchers look like the big red machine couldn't get a few runs off them. That's how bad their offense is, and they showed it again yesterday and today.

 

[Insidious Von]

Lets not create a double standard, Bo and Vlady are younger than Matthews, Marner and Nylander. They should not be the subject of scorn while the Larfs get away with being degenerate losers annually.

The biggest hole in the Jays line-up, the clean up hitter. Schneider had no choice but to put Bo there, Vlady wasn't getting any support. Pitchers got away with pitching him garbage, since the batter that followed Vlady was an almost automatic out. Brandon Belt will almost certainly retire, he looked like Jose Bautista in his final year with the Jays. I'm interested to see what Barger and Nunez bring to the batting next year, They didn't get called up at all this year.

 

[Insidious Von]

The Mightiest of all Broadcasters hit the nail on the head with a sledgehammer about the Larfs giving the farm to losers. When Sid speaks people listen.

 

[maurice93]

But in the end, who are we all kidding? No one is going to beat the Braves in a 7 game series, that Atlanta team is stacked

MLB playoffs don't work like that. It's rare that the best team wins the World Series - sure the Braves have the best chance, but its far below 50%.
Their pitching depth is also an issue due to recent injuries.

 

[maurice93]

Lets not create a double standard, Bo and Vlady are younger than Matthews, Marner and Nylander. They should not be the subject of scorn while the Larfs get away with being degenerate losers annually.

The biggest hole in the Jays line-up, the clean up hitter. Schneider had no choice but to put Bo there, Vlady wasn't getting any support. Pitchers got away with pitching him garbage, since the batter that followed Vlady was an almost automatic out. Brandon Belt will almost certainly retire, he looked like Jose Bautista in his final year with the Jays. I'm interested to see what Barger and Nunez bring to the batting next year, They didn't get called up at all this year.

Brandon Belt had the highest SLG% and OBP% of all the starters on the team. Comparing him to 2017 Bautista is very odd. His OPS+ was a very strong 136 this year (36% above league average) - Jose Bautista was 79 in 2017 (21% below league average) He was not the problem and his 1yr / 9m contract was fine. He might retire because of his age, but he would certainly be able to get another decent contract if he wanted to.

The issue with Vlad was not a protection issue. If teams were so scared of him, and the protection behind him was so bad, he would have had much more than 5 intentional walks.

Teams weren't scared of pitching to Vlad this year, especially by mid way. They were aggressive with him. They also knew that he would swing at almost anything and then lay off meatballs - his batting approach was total garbage this year. Is that a Vlad issue, or the hitting coach / analytics team.

Also who is Nunez? Are you talking about Orelvis Martinez?

I don't think you are going to see a whole bunch of young players coming in next year. They have some options in Schneider, Horwitz, Bargar, Martinez, but in the end i only think 1 of them will get significant PA's to start next year.... not sure who. But it depends on how the Jays fill their offensive holes this offseason. They have some money to spend.

 

[Insidious Von]

Also who is Nunez? Are you talking about Orelvis Martinez?

I don't remember Orelvis Martinez, Rainer Nunez was invited to spring training due to his impressive season with the NH Fishercats. He hit several bombs during his time with the Jays.

 

[maurice93]

They just said on the post game show that Schneider said Berrios had his best stuff of the year. Head scratcher for sure. Pre game strategy be damned sometimes you have to ride the hot hand.

I'm certainly highly pro analytics... but with a healthy dose of judgment.
But even the geeks in other analytical departments across MLB, who are in favour of yanking starters fairly early (after 5 or in the 6th) were likely laughing at our team's approach yesterday,


Analytics are great for:
- Fielding Setup
- Helping assess player value in trades / signings
- Helping with pitching and hitting approaches.
- Helping with player development

They are not for pre-determining and hard closing your pitching setup. They could help you determine alternatives for consideration if your pitcher is on or off -- but not pre-determining things. Pitchers more than any other position, don't perform at a homogenous level from game to game. Sometimes they are really on, and sometimes they are really off. Same thing with relievers.

I do understand the theory that short burst relievers are better than starters, as starters get later into the game (3rd way through the lineup). But as stated above the performance of a starting pitcher or a reliever is not homogeneous .... to expect them to do the same as normal without using the eye test is absolute insanity.

Bullpen management in modern day baseball is absurd.
These geeks manage every game as if its the last one. The problem in the regular season when quick hooks are done is that,you have play a game almost every single day after it for the next week. We complain when a Cimber, Richards, Jackson or Garcia has to pitch in a critical situation over their normal grade. But they have to because analytics went to the bullpen to early the day before, or for several games in a row.

Even in a short series its absurd. So the Jays devised this "best" plan for game 2. It makes you wonder did the analytics team consider game 3. What exactly was their plan in game 3 -- run with a bunch of extremely tired relievers?

So many things were wrong with the Berrios pull yesterday
- He was pitching great
- The fact that it was done in the 4th rather than say the sixth.
- Relievers are used to coming in mid inning - Kikuchi is not ... that was one of the more absurd ones.
- And most of all this had to be a kick to the gut to the rest of the team to see something so stupid happen.

 

[black booty lover]

I don't know how Rogers can let Atkins stay at this point no matter how close him and Shapiro are. The organization is a complete mess. You got Jose Berrios crying after the game. You got John Schnieder basically deflecting the blame and calling out Vlad and upper management (don't blame him for either). You got Bo calling out upper management, and this is the mess Atkins put together. How you can look your fans in the eyes and tell them your not holding this accountable after 7 years is beyond me.

 

[black booty lover]

But even the geeks in other analytical departments across MLB, who are in favour of yanking starters fairly early (after 5 or in the 6th) were likely laughing at our team's approach yesterday,

The Twins were probably laughing in the dugout yesterday when they saw Schneider come out to the mound.

 

[black booty lover]

I'm certainly highly pro analytics... but with a healthy dose of judgment.
But even the geeks in other analytical departments across MLB, who are in favour of yanking starters fairly early (after 5 or in the 6th) were likely laughing at our team's approach yesterday,


Analytics are great for:
- Fielding Setup
- Helping assess player value in trades / signings
- Helping with pitching and hitting approaches.
- Helping with player development

They are not for pre-determining and hard closing your pitching setup. They could help you determine alternatives for consideration if your pitcher is on or off -- but not pre-determining things. Pitchers more than any other position, don't perform at a homogenous level from game to game. Sometimes they are really on, and sometimes they are really off. Same thing with relievers.

I do understand the theory that short burst relievers are better than starters, as starters get later into the game (3rd way through the lineup). But as stated above the performance of a starting pitcher or a reliever is not homogeneous .... to expect them to do the same as normal with using the eye test is absolute insanity.

Bullpen management in modern day baseball is absurd.
These geeks manage every game as if its the last one. The problem in the regular season when quick hooks are done is that,you have play a game almost every single day after it for the next week. We complain when a Cimber, Richards, Jackson or Garcia has to pitch in a critical situation over their normal grade. But they have to because analytics went to the bullpen to early the day before, or for several games in a row.

Even in a short series its absurd. So the Jays devised this "best" plan for game 2. It makes you wonder did the analytics team consider game 3. What exactly was their plan in game 3 -- run with a bunch of extremely tired relievers?

So many things were wrong with the Berrios pull yesterday
- He was pitching great
- The fact that it was done in the 4th rather than say the sixth.
- Relievers are used to coming in mid inning - Kikuchi is not ... that was one of the more absurd ones.
- And most of all this had to be a kick to the gut to the rest of the team to see something so stupid happen.

The obsurd part was, okay, so you game plan is "you must win today, and worry about tomorrow, tomorrow". Put in your best and make it to the next day. So you decide your going to let Berrios pitch 3 innings and pull him. Kikuchi is the guy your going to???

Holy fuck man....

 

[maurice93]

The obsurd part was, okay, so you game plan is "you must win today, and worry about tomorrow, tomorrow". Put in your best and make it to the next day. So you decide your going to let Berrios pitch 3 innings and pull him. Kikuchi is the guy your going to???

Holy fuck man....

When you decide to pull a guy with 17 outs left to go, you have to extend yourself beyond your strongest relievers.

I would have still been pissed if the Jays had pulled Berrios after 5 and he was pitching shutout ball, based on "analytics". But at least the plan to get us home at that point would have only asked relievers (of which we have lefties and righties) to bring us home.

The absurd part was the plan appeared to be:
1) Bring Kikuchi in for only 4 or 5 outs.
2) Bring Kikuchi in the middle of an inning if needed.
3) Hope the Twins take out a few hitters for platoon reasons.

Why would the analytics guys think that Berrios for 3 innings, and Kikuchi for 2 innings, would be better than Berrios for 5 innings.

 

[maurice93]

I don't know how Rogers can let Atkins stay at this point no matter how close him and Shapiro are. The organization is a complete mess. You got Jose Berrios crying after the game. You got John Schnieder basically deflecting the blame and calling out Vlad and upper management (don't blame him for either). You got Bo calling out upper management, and this is the mess Atkins put together. How you can look your fans in the eyes and tell them your not holding this accountable after 7 years is beyond me.

It's a shitshow.

I know some disagreed with me when I said this earlier, but I felt Shatkins actually did a decent / good job building this team up by 2021, given the imminent rebuild we were in after 2016 But everything between 2021 and 2023, when the team should have been improving has went sideways or backwards.

This team moving forward at the end of 2023, is still in better shape than it was after 2016. And it also helps that we have Rogers now spending a bunch more on the team.

Hopefully ownership gets a new set of eyes in here in management and does a proper re-tool. Change in coaches, change in approaches, some change in players. But this is not a team given its budget, age of some players that needs a full out rebuild. But we need some roster change and some change in philosophy from those leading them.

 

[unassuming]

3rd base coach, Luis Rivera has announced his retirement

 

[black booty lover]

It's a shitshow.

I know some disagreed with me when I said this earlier, but I felt Shatkins actually did a decent / good job building this team up by 2021, given the imminent rebuild we were in after 2016 But everything between 2021 and 2023, when the team should have been improving has went sideways or backwards.

This team moving forward at the end of 2023, is still in better shape than it was after 2016. And it also helps that we have Rogers now spending a bunch more on the team.

Hopefully ownership gets a new set of eyes in here in management and does a proper re-tool. Change in coaches, change in approaches, some change in players. But this is not a team given its budget, age of some players that needs a full out rebuild. But we need some roster change and some change in philosophy from those leading them.

once again we seem to be on the exact same page. I felt the same way when a lot of people were bashing shatkins in the early years. I defended them because they made a lot of good moves, and the team was trending in the right direction. The idea was, sacrafice some of the early years, to have a big window of where the team would be compete for a WS for 3 or 4 years as opposed to band-aid solutions where your just good enough to compete and get into the post season once in a while.

 

[Toronto Passions]

I don't know how Rogers can let Atkins stay at this point no matter how close him and Shapiro are. The organization is a complete mess. You got Jose Berrios crying after the game. You got John Schnieder basically deflecting the blame and calling out Vlad and upper management (don't blame him for either). You got Bo calling out upper management, and this is the mess Atkins put together. How you can look your fans in the eyes and tell them your not holding this accountable after 7 years is beyond me.

I’ve said it before, and I will say it again…. They should never have tinkered with the chemistry of last years team. The only thing I liked about this year was Kevin Kiermaier, and some of the late season pitching enhanmemts. They were on the right path last year, even though the playoff exit was upsetting….. they could have added to that core and accomplished so much instead of all of these unnecessary changes and one-year deals. Last year‘s team was fine with the jacket and scary with the lineup.

Philip

 

[black booty lover]

When you decide to pull a guy with 17 outs left to go, you have to extend yourself beyond your strongest relievers.

I would have still been pissed if the Jays had pulled Berrios after 5 and he was pitching shutout ball, based on "analytics". But at least the plan to get us home at that point would have only asked relievers (of which we have lefties and righties) to bring us home.

The absurd part was the plan appeared to be:
1) Bring Kikuchi in for only 4 or 5 outs.
2) Bring Kikuchi in the middle of an inning if needed.
3) Hope the Twins take out a few hitters for platoon reasons.

Why would the analytics guys think that Berrios for 3 innings, and Kikuchi for 2 innings, would be better than Berrios for 5 innings.

Right, but if your mentality was "we need to win this game no matter what happens so it's all hands on deck", I still think Kikuchi is way down in the pecking order.

 

[black booty lover]

I’ve said it before, and I will say it again…. They should never have tinkered with the chemistry of last years team. The only thing I liked about this year was Kevin Kiermaier, and some of the late season pitching enhanmemts. They were on the right path last year, even though the playoff exit was upsetting….. they could have added to that core and accomplished so much instead of all of these unnecessary changes and one-year deals. Last year‘s team was fine with the jacket and scary with the lineup.

Philip

Listen, I get the fact they did to much, but they did also need to make some moves to break up the clown show at the end of the dugout. They also needed some left AB's. Where they went wrong in my opinion, especially if the idea was "okay, we are now in win now mode", you can't trade Teo for Swanson. If they were going to move Teo, the needed a much better return and they obviously didn't get any great offers. So you trade a 300 hitter with great power who was the only guy that pretty much gave you any offence the previous post season for a relief pitcher. If you didn't get a decent offer for Teo, they should have kept him.

 

[Toronto Passions]

So you trade a 300 hitter with great power who was the only guy that pretty much gave you any offence the previous post season for a relief pitcher. If you didn't a decent offer for Teo, they should have kept him.

Thank you!

The only thing I like about that clown show is the fact that I feel like Vlady produces better with it. Or it was just a coincidence and there’s a real regression going on.

Philip

 

[mitchell76]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1709955556671193147