No see that's the problem. The Jays make average pitchers looks amazing, and make good pitchers look like the big red machine couldn't get a few runs off them. That's how bad their offense is, and they showed it again yesterday and today.
Jays 2023
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No see that's the problem. The Jays make average pitchers looks amazing, and make good pitchers look like the big red machine couldn't get a few runs off them. That's how bad their offense is, and they showed it again yesterday and today.
Lets not create a double standard, Bo and Vlady are younger than Matthews, Marner and Nylander. They should not be the subject of scorn while the Larfs get away with being degenerate losers annually.
The biggest hole in the Jays line-up, the clean up hitter. Schneider had no choice but to put Bo there, Vlady wasn't getting any support. Pitchers got away with pitching him garbage, since the batter that followed Vlady was an almost automatic out. Brandon Belt will almost certainly retire, he looked like Jose Bautista in his final year with the Jays. I'm interested to see what Barger and Nunez bring to the batting next year, They didn't get called up at all this year.
The biggest hole in the Jays line-up, the clean up hitter. Schneider had no choice but to put Bo there, Vlady wasn't getting any support. Pitchers got away with pitching him garbage, since the batter that followed Vlady was an almost automatic out. Brandon Belt will almost certainly retire, he looked like Jose Bautista in his final year with the Jays. I'm interested to see what Barger and Nunez bring to the batting next year, They didn't get called up at all this year.
The Mightiest of all Broadcasters hit the nail on the head with a sledgehammer about the Larfs giving the farm to losers. When Sid speaks people listen.
MLB playoffs don't work like that. It's rare that the best team wins the World Series - sure the Braves have the best chance, but its far below 50%.
Their pitching depth is also an issue due to recent injuries.
Brandon Belt had the highest SLG% and OBP% of all the starters on the team. Comparing him to 2017 Bautista is very odd. His OPS+ was a very strong 136 this year (36% above league average) - Jose Bautista was 79 in 2017 (21% below league average) He was not the problem and his 1yr / 9m contract was fine. He might retire because of his age, but he would certainly be able to get another decent contract if he wanted to.
The issue with Vlad was not a protection issue. If teams were so scared of him, and the protection behind him was so bad, he would have had much more than 5 intentional walks.
Teams weren't scared of pitching to Vlad this year, especially by mid way. They were aggressive with him. They also knew that he would swing at almost anything and then lay off meatballs - his batting approach was total garbage this year. Is that a Vlad issue, or the hitting coach / analytics team.
Also who is Nunez? Are you talking about Orelvis Martinez?
I don't think you are going to see a whole bunch of young players coming in next year. They have some options in Schneider, Horwitz, Bargar, Martinez, but in the end i only think 1 of them will get significant PA's to start next year.... not sure who. But it depends on how the Jays fill their offensive holes this offseason. They have some money to spend.
I don't remember Orelvis Martinez, Rainer Nunez was invited to spring training due to his impressive season with the NH Fishercats. He hit several bombs during his time with the Jays.
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I'm certainly highly pro analytics... but with a healthy dose of judgment.
But even the geeks in other analytical departments across MLB, who are in favour of yanking starters fairly early (after 5 or in the 6th) were likely laughing at our team's approach yesterday,
Analytics are great for:
- Fielding Setup
- Helping assess player value in trades / signings
- Helping with pitching and hitting approaches.
- Helping with player development
They are not for pre-determining and hard closing your pitching setup. They could help you determine alternatives for consideration if your pitcher is on or off -- but not pre-determining things. Pitchers more than any other position, don't perform at a homogenous level from game to game. Sometimes they are really on, and sometimes they are really off. Same thing with relievers.
I do understand the theory that short burst relievers are better than starters, as starters get later into the game (3rd way through the lineup). But as stated above the performance of a starting pitcher or a reliever is not homogeneous .... to expect them to do the same as normal without using the eye test is absolute insanity.
Bullpen management in modern day baseball is absurd.
These geeks manage every game as if its the last one. The problem in the regular season when quick hooks are done is that,you have play a game almost every single day after it for the next week. We complain when a Cimber, Richards, Jackson or Garcia has to pitch in a critical situation over their normal grade. But they have to because analytics went to the bullpen to early the day before, or for several games in a row.
Even in a short series its absurd. So the Jays devised this "best" plan for game 2. It makes you wonder did the analytics team consider game 3. What exactly was their plan in game 3 -- run with a bunch of extremely tired relievers?
So many things were wrong with the Berrios pull yesterday
- He was pitching great
- The fact that it was done in the 4th rather than say the sixth.
- Relievers are used to coming in mid inning - Kikuchi is not ... that was one of the more absurd ones.
- And most of all this had to be a kick to the gut to the rest of the team to see something so stupid happen.
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I don't know how Rogers can let Atkins stay at this point no matter how close him and Shapiro are. The organization is a complete mess. You got Jose Berrios crying after the game. You got John Schnieder basically deflecting the blame and calling out Vlad and upper management (don't blame him for either). You got Bo calling out upper management, and this is the mess Atkins put together. How you can look your fans in the eyes and tell them your not holding this accountable after 7 years is beyond me.
The Twins were probably laughing in the dugout yesterday when they saw Schneider come out to the mound.
The obsurd part was, okay, so you game plan is "you must win today, and worry about tomorrow, tomorrow". Put in your best and make it to the next day. So you decide your going to let Berrios pitch 3 innings and pull him. Kikuchi is the guy your going to???
Holy fuck man....
When you decide to pull a guy with 17 outs left to go, you have to extend yourself beyond your strongest relievers.
I would have still been pissed if the Jays had pulled Berrios after 5 and he was pitching shutout ball, based on "analytics". But at least the plan to get us home at that point would have only asked relievers (of which we have lefties and righties) to bring us home.
The absurd part was the plan appeared to be:
1) Bring Kikuchi in for only 4 or 5 outs.
2) Bring Kikuchi in the middle of an inning if needed.
3) Hope the Twins take out a few hitters for platoon reasons.
Why would the analytics guys think that Berrios for 3 innings, and Kikuchi for 2 innings, would be better than Berrios for 5 innings.
It's a shitshow.
I know some disagreed with me when I said this earlier, but I felt Shatkins actually did a decent / good job building this team up by 2021, given the imminent rebuild we were in after 2016 But everything between 2021 and 2023, when the team should have been improving has went sideways or backwards.
This team moving forward at the end of 2023, is still in better shape than it was after 2016. And it also helps that we have Rogers now spending a bunch more on the team.
Hopefully ownership gets a new set of eyes in here in management and does a proper re-tool. Change in coaches, change in approaches, some change in players. But this is not a team given its budget, age of some players that needs a full out rebuild. But we need some roster change and some change in philosophy from those leading them.
once again we seem to be on the exact same page. I felt the same way when a lot of people were bashing shatkins in the early years. I defended them because they made a lot of good moves, and the team was trending in the right direction. The idea was, sacrafice some of the early years, to have a big window of where the team would be compete for a WS for 3 or 4 years as opposed to band-aid solutions where your just good enough to compete and get into the post season once in a while.
- Jun 15, 2004
- 8,382
- 1,565
- 113
I’ve said it before, and I will say it again…. They should never have tinkered with the chemistry of last years team. The only thing I liked about this year was Kevin Kiermaier, and some of the late season pitching enhanmemts. They were on the right path last year, even though the playoff exit was upsetting….. they could have added to that core and accomplished so much instead of all of these unnecessary changes and one-year deals. Last year‘s team was fine with the jacket and scary with the lineup.
Philip
Right, but if your mentality was "we need to win this game no matter what happens so it's all hands on deck", I still think Kikuchi is way down in the pecking order.
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Listen, I get the fact they did to much, but they did also need to make some moves to break up the clown show at the end of the dugout. They also needed some left AB's. Where they went wrong in my opinion, especially if the idea was "okay, we are now in win now mode", you can't trade Teo for Swanson. If they were going to move Teo, the needed a much better return and they obviously didn't get any great offers. So you trade a 300 hitter with great power who was the only guy that pretty much gave you any offence the previous post season for a relief pitcher. If you didn't get a decent offer for Teo, they should have kept him.
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- Jun 15, 2004
- 8,382
- 1,565
- 113
Thank you!
The only thing I like about that clown show is the fact that I feel like Vlady produces better with it. Or it was just a coincidence and there’s a real regression going on.
Philip
A 12 year old little league player who gets picked off would say "I screwed up, I am so sorry" (and might even cry). A 24 year old alleged star says "it is what it is and I will hit the ball hard next at bat". Accountability? Responsibility?
In other news, Gabriel Moreno has become a star but apparently was injured last night. He and Gurriel move on in the playoffs.
In other news, Gabriel Moreno has become a star but apparently was injured last night. He and Gurriel move on in the playoffs.
