Its offical : Transphobia is here to stay!

[Valcazar]

View attachment 223308
Well....yes! No shit. That is the purpose of clinical treatment for mental illness. The assumption that Affirmation is superior to watchful waiting is odd. It's new and the tide is turning back to Watchful Waiting. Too bad you're on the wrong side of history.

"It even acknowledges that at the time, treatment was more focused on convincing children not to transition."
Of course it was. Given that many desist and/or destransition, this was the proper clinical approach before WPATH went off the deep end.

You're free to assert that, but the problem is that you quoted a scientific study and said that it showed Watchful Waiting was better when it did no such thing and even the people who did the study say it did no such thing in their paper.

Now this part that you think is important is HILARIOUS!
"the controls were people who did not suffer from GD. In other words, what this study found was that people who had undergone sex-reassignment surgery <snip> than someone who didn't suffer from gender dysphoria. "
Yes, yes, the didn't have GD but YET THEY HAD UNDERGONE SEX-REASSIGNMENT SURGURY. Really? I guess they thought they were the opposite sex why? Wait, because they were Transsexuals. Huh. AGP right? Let's get bottom surgery for Laughs and giggles?

You don't understand scientific papers and controls at all, then?
Who do you think the control population is in this study?

View attachment 223146
As for this part, yes. The context is that transexuals suffer from Mental Illness at a far, far greater rate that standard population. Thank-you for reiterating my point about the results from Tavistock on the UK.

"So, you know, it is kind of interesting that you framed it in a way to imply exactly that the treatment was causing the suicides."
I did no such thing. Those are your words because you're able to make a cogent argument without straw-manning.

Bullshit.
Look at how you wrote it in the original.

After sex reassignment surgery, one study showed that adult transsexual clients were 4.9 times more likely to have made a suicide attempt and 19.1 times more likely to have died from suicide, after adjusting for prior psychiatric comorbidity
Zucker, K.J., Lawrence, A.A., Kreukels, B.P. (2016). Gender Dysphoria in Adults. Annu Rev Clin Psychol.

Bolding is yours.
Yes, that is written explicitly to imply that the causative factor is the sex reassignment surgery.
You want to back away from that now, that's fine.

As for Littman, I'm hoping that you'll go on and on about how her ROGD study was withdrawn (yet ignore that it was later accepted with only minor changes). Didn't bite?

Why are you hoping for reactions based on you trolling if you are supposedly presenting a serious argument?

Since you don't seem to want to provide the Littman link - here it is for the peanut gallery:
This is the corrected version that was republished: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0214157
(If you want Littman's original, it is still accessible.)

Here is the apology by the journal for publishing the original and why they got Littman to publish a correction: https://everyone.plos.org/2019/03/19/correcting-the-scientific-record-and-an-apology/
Here is the formal comment about the paper: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0212578

By Bailey, I assume you're referring to Dr. Michael J. Bailey who published a recent paper titled, "Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria: Parent Reports on 1655 Possible Cases"

RETRACTED ARTICLE: Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria: Parent Reports on 1655 Possible Cases - Archives of Sexual Behavior

During the past decade there has been a dramatic increase in adolescents and young adults (AYA) complaining of gender dysphoria. One influential if controversial explanation is that the increase reflects a socially contagious syndrome: Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD). We report results from...

link.springer.com

Yes, he wrote "The Man Who Would Be Queen" and was involved in that embroglio and has been a longstanding colleague of Blanchard.

Quick summary
"Notable findings in line with past studies show that adolescent-onset gender dysphoria disproportionately affects females, with the sample showing 75 percent females versus 25 percent males.
These young people had high rates of coexisting mental health issues, with 42 percent having a formal mental health diagnosis. The parents reported that, on average, the child’s mental health issues had started nearly 4 years before the onset of gender dysphoria. The most common issues were depression, anxiety, self harm, and “difficulty socializing with peers.”
Youth with mental health issues were observed to be far more likely to have socially or medically transitioned, which Bailey and Diaz state “is concerning because youth with mental health issues may be especially likely to lack judgment necessary to make these important, and in the case of medical transition permanent, decisions.”

Huh, who knew social contagion was a thing?

It's been a thing for just over 7 years now!
It's been the line to push since it first gets asserted as an explanation for trans youth in February of 2016. (It goes big in August that year, as Littman starts recruiting for her paper.)
The idea of "social contagion" goes back much farther of course.
ROGD doesn't get formalized as a name for another few months until Littman starts recruiting for her paper in August.

But yeah - it's been a thing since the summer of 2016!

As for Bailey's paper, it's new and I haven't read it.
Sadly, he seems to repeat Littman's approach of interviewing the parents and not the kids, and also recruiting them specifically from a website whose parents are concerned their children became trans due to ROGD.

So, since we are discussing the literature - let's bring to the table some peer-reviewed studies that have yielded results inconsistent with or even directly contradict the ROGD and “transgender social contagion” hypotheses (Restar et al., 2019; Kuper et al., 2019; Kennedy, 2020; Bauer et al., 2021; Sansfaçon et al., 2021; Sorbara et al., 2021; Puckett et al., 2022; Turban et al., 2022)

Any comments on any of those?

 

[Valcazar]

The watchful waiting model
The “watchful waiting” model was designed by the members of the interdisciplinary team at the Amsterdam Center of Expertise on Gender Dysphoria, VU University Medical Center, under the leadership of Dr Peggy Cohen-Kettenis. Borrowing from the medical use of GnRH agonists for children exhibiting precocious puberty, the Netherlands team is responsible for introducing the use of puberty blockers for gender purposes, to put a pause on pubertal growth and allow more time for a youth to explore their gender and consolidate their adolescent gender identity, with the future possibility of cross-sex hormone therapy to align their bodies with their affirmed gender identity. In contrast to the live in your own skin approach, a young child’s demonstration of gender nonconformity, be it in identity, expressions, or both, is not to be manipulated in any way, but observed over time. If a child’s cross-gender identifications and affirmations are persistent over time, interventions are made available for a child to consolidate a transgender identity, once it is assessed, through therapeutic intervention and psychometric assessment, as in the best interests of the child. These interventions include social transitions (the shift from one gender to another, including possible name change, gender marker change, and gender pronoun changes), puberty blockers, and later hormones and possible gender-affirming surgeries. No attempts are made to alter a child’s gender identity or expressions; yet it is postulated in this model that it would be better to hold off until puberty on any social transitions of a child from one gender to another, and instead give them safe spaces to fully express their gender as they prefer before facilitating any full gender transitions.18,19 The rationale for holding off on any social transitions until adolescence is not to ward off a transgender identity but rather that 1) it would be advantageous that a child experiences the first stages of physical puberty for that child to best make a determination of the gender that feels most authentic to him/her; 2) given developmental stages of childhood, facilitating a social transition from one gender to another at a young age may create a form of cognitive constriction – the child may be prematurely blocked from considering any other possibilities once moved into a cross-gender status and socially constricted from further childhood gender exploration because now they know the cross-gender identity is what everyone has come to expect from them; 3) socially transitioning a child at a very young age may preclude the child from maintaining a realistic understanding of their body and historical status – as a penis-bodied (once a boy) or a vagina-bodied (once a girl) person. In informing their practices, this model, like the live in your own skin model, relies on the data gathered about “persisters” and “desisters”, both at their own clinic in the Netherlands and in other international studies, particularly those conducted at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (CAMH) gender program in Toronto. In the most recent review of these studies, it was found that 63% of the children seeking services at a gender clinic at a young age, and diagnosed with gender dysphoria, no longer had that diagnosis at puberty, while 37% did have the diagnosis consistently from early childhood to adolescence.20 Since a large majority of gender nonconforming young children seeking services at gender clinics desist in their gender dysphoria by adolescence, best practices would be to wait and see if the child persists into adolescence before making any significant changes in a child’s gender identity.
During the preadolescent waiting period, the children are followed carefully by the clinical team in the watchful waiting model, with the support of outside therapists in the community (which is required before a child can receive medical services), to assure that the children are growing well and getting their emotional needs met, and in preparation for later transitioning and medical interventions if the child proves to be a good candidate. Like in the live in your own skin model, the children going through the program also receive a full battery of psychological tests, documenting not only their gender status but also their cognitive–social–emotional functioning. Some of these instruments are delivered to the children directly, some to their parents or teachers.
If the mother asking for help with her 4-year-old were to attend the Amsterdam clinic with her child, the team might do an assessment and advise that the 4-year-old be followed over time, with the understanding that if her son’s declarations of wanting to be a girl persisted over time and if he continued to be drawn only to “girl” toys and activities, consideration of puberty blockers to buy more time to explore gender could certainly happen later, but for now it would be best to let her son continue to be a son free to explore whatever activities he enjoyed, with no corrections on his expressed desire to be a girl.

Gender nonconforming youth: current perspectives - PMC

Beginning with a case vignette, a discussion follows of the reformulation of theories of gender development taking into consideration the recent upsurge of gender nonconforming and transgender youth presenting for gender services and also in the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Watchful waiting doesn’t mean no puberty blockers: Anti-trans researchers misrepresent academic…

In the latest issue of the American Journal of Bioethics, a peer commentary by Michael Laidlaw, Michelle Cretella, and G. Kevin Donovan…

medium.com

As I apprehend "watchful waiting" and the "Dutch model" from the 2 above articles, hormone therapy and gender choice reinforcement are simply delayed to 12 years old. Correct me if I am wrong.

The major difference between watchful waiting (which is the "Dutch model") and affirmative care seems to be the emphasis they place on social transitioning. Watchful waiting encourages the kid to express their gender as they see fit, but doesn't recommend social transition (and the push to have the community support that which that entails). The gender affirmative care is more in favor of letting the kid social transition as they see fit. Within those broad categories, exactly when and how puberty blockers should be employed, or hormones and surgery brought in, can vary quite a bit.

Like I said, there is a lot of serious, sober debate about how best to provide care to this population.

 

[Valcazar]

Im taking the view that many gay people have been spreading. In the case of kids and adolescents its wrong to start puberty blocking or make any diagnosis at that age. That many gay people as they start their sexual awakening are confused as to why they are same sex attracted and it can easily be mistaken for gender disphoria. Add in some men are just naturally effeminate and some women more masculine.

They go on to say that usually by early adulthood, depending on social conditions of acceptance they "settle down" and realize they are just gay and not trans. And with minimal support can just be normal people.

Quite simply once you chop things off and chemically change someone its done. So really its something that should not happen to kids. At all. And with adults a lot of testing and councilling is needed to be sure.

"I don't want more interventions than are necessary" is perfectly anodyne and is what every single person on all sides of the debate say they are in favor of.

What model are you actually suggesting people follow?

 

[jcpro]

Cutting through the noise, lol!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1642927598454947841

 

[Butler1000]

"I don't want more interventions than are necessary" is perfectly anodyne and is what every single person on all sides of the debate say they are in favor of.

What model are you actually suggesting people follow?

No. They are some, and I even have them as friends, who actually think it should be diagnosed and started before puberty. Its how this came about because of my gay friends commented and posted about this. And the fights started. With memes posted about this opinion is an attempt to divide the LBGTQ community to hurt it.

And Trans people who support this view being labeled "gender traitors". And right wing. Believe me they aren't.

I'm not kidding. I think with some trans people they actually have an agenda this will mainstream it and will promote it just to gain attention and "new" recruits to justify their own decisions.

Yes its an easy common sense opinion I posted. And its being attacked in the public sphere as homophobic. That's the point.

 

[Valcazar]

No. They are some, and I even have them as friends, who actually think it should be diagnosed and started before puberty. Its how this came about because of my gay friends commented and posted about this. And the fights started. With memes posted about this opinion is an attempt to divide the LBGTQ community to hurt it.

Wait.
The existence of trans people is an attempt to divide the LBGTQ community?
Or the existence of gender affirming treatment?

You have to clarify that because that is just weird the way you've phrased it.

What is "this opinion" here?
That being trans should be "diagnosed" (interesting medicalization jargon there) before puberty?

And Trans people who support this view being labeled "gender traitors". And right wing. Believe me they aren't.

What view?
That it should be "diagnosed"?
That gender affirming care should exist?
That Watchful waiting is more appropriate?

What?

I'm not kidding. I think with some trans people they actually have an agenda this will mainstream it and will promote it just to gain attention and "new" recruits to justify their own decisions.

That's some batshit paranoia you have going there.
Right to "the transgender recruitment agenda" I see.

Why do you think this?
Just because some people disagree with you about treatment options?

Yes its an easy common sense opinion I posted. And its being attacked in the public sphere as homophobic. That's the point.

How is your incredibly boring and uncontroversial opinion being attacked as homophobic?

Oh wait... your opinion is actually this one?
" In the case of kids and adolescents its wrong to start puberty blocking or make any diagnosis at that age. "

This is the opinion you claim the gay people you know support?

And you wonder why people are giving you side-eye?

Let's break this down then...

What is an adolescent to you?
What is a "diagnosis" to you?

 

[Butler1000]

Wait.
The existence of trans people is an attempt to divide the LBGTQ community?
Or the existence of gender affirming treatment?

You have to clarify that because that is just weird the way you've phrased it.

What is "this opinion" here?
That being trans should be "diagnosed" (interesting medicalization jargon there) before puberty?



What view?
That it should be "diagnosed"?
That gender affirming care should exist?
That Watchful waiting is more appropriate?

What?



That's some batshit paranoia you have going there.
Right to "the transgender recruitment agenda" I see.

Why do you think this?
Just because some people disagree with you about treatment options?



How is your incredibly boring and uncontroversial opinion being attacked as homophobic?

Oh wait... your opinion is actually this one?
" In the case of kids and adolescents its wrong to start puberty blocking or make any diagnosis at that age. "

This is the opinion you claim the gay people you know support?

And you wonder why people are giving you side-eye?

Let's break this down then...

What is an adolescent to you?
What is a "diagnosis" to you?

Wow. Im just so indifferent to this post. Go back and try again. Its quite clear.

 

[mandrill]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1642332826627366914

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1642934246892355597

 

[jcpro]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1642957932429180928

Damn, them trans crowd is hateful and violent.

Oh, btw. Where's the "manifesto "?

 

[jcpro]

Hmm...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1642987534723747841

 

[bver_hunter]

The answer my friends are saying is don't make assumptions towards extremes when there is a good chance it isn't neccessary. And that filling kids heads with false diagnoses is wrong. They are far better to just wait and let the kid see where they are. That in most cases the person comes to realize they are just fine in their body.

As to JC what I'm hearing firstly is kink shaming. From you and a few others. And on this site that's a no no. So stop it. Secondly lots of terms get thrown around, and he will have to confirm this but I think he is more into "ladyboy" types on that end. But either way if he also likes pre op with boobs so what?

In the end this take has an Occam's razor quality to it of heading to the simple explanation of both sexual attraction and certain behaviors. That's who they are, its ok, and no need for hormones and surgery.

What you have to realize is that the suicide rates for those who identify themselves as transgenders is very high as I stated in one of my previous posts. How do you come up with that false statement that one is filling the heads of kids with "false diagnosis". You are no expert in that respect, and these kids need proper guidance and counselling to live their normal lives without harassment and bullying. The ones coming up with extremes are the likes of MTG and her QAnon Conspiracy theories where she labels the Democrats as "pedophiles". The majority of parents that comets realize that their kids are not going to change their habits are the ones that want some sort of adaptations to their children needs. In fact the hospitals do not carry out any procedures on minors except those around 16 years of age or so where the parents are the ones pushing for it as they want their children to have their choice of being transgenders!!

Not about shaming JC, but he is a bit hypocritical in the manner in which he is bashing these transgenders procedures etc based on a false pretext. Those pre-ops with boobs are a transgenders choice when they reach the age of consent. The Republicans and someone like Trump at the helm actual passed laws discriminating against these transexuals in the military and other armed forces. The fact is that a sizeable section of the Republicans just want them banned altogether if they can get their way with it. But equating these killings by blaming the mental minds of the transgenders is despicable. Again the surgery and hormones are a choice for the transgenders and not yours or mine. If they are minors and the parents push for such procedures and medications as they feel that otherwise the mental state of their child makes them suicidal then in those extenuating circumstances they will give their consent. Why are the right politicizing it?

 

[The Oracle]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1642957319364562944

Lay off the kids for christs sake.....

 

[bver_hunter]

This sums up why the right wingers are all for anti-transgender rights:

Headlining the conference on Saturday, Donald Trump drew some of the wildest applause of his more than 90-minute address when he pledged to stop the “chemical castration and sexual mutilization [sic]” of children if re-elected in 2024 while endorsing a national ban on transgender medical treatment for young people.

Anti-trans rhetoric took center stage at CPAC amid hostile Republican efforts

Republicans are pursuing a barrage of new restrictions related to healthcare and human rights for transgender people

www.theguardian.com

Yes, they love the transphobic rhetoric by an Indicted criminal of an individual!!

 

[Butler1000]

What you have to realize is that the suicide rates for those who identify themselves as transgenders is very high as I stated in one of my previous posts. How do you come up with that false statement that one is filling the heads of kids with "false diagnosis". You are no expert in that respect, and these kids need proper guidance and counselling to live their normal lives without harassment and bullying. The ones coming up with extremes are the likes of MTG and her QAnon Conspiracy theories where she labels the Democrats as "pedophiles". The majority of parents that comets realize that their kids are not going to change their habits are the ones that want some sort of adaptations to their children needs. In fact the hospitals do not carry out any procedures on minors except those around 16 years of age or so where the parents are the ones pushing for it as they want their children to have their choice of being transgenders!!

Not about shaming JC, but he is a bit hypocritical in the manner in which he is bashing these transgenders procedures etc based on a false pretext. Those pre-ops with boobs are a transgenders choice when they reach the age of consent. The Republicans and someone like Trump at the helm actual passed laws discriminating against these transexuals in the military and other armed forces. The fact is that a sizeable section of the Republicans just want them banned altogether if they can get their way with it. But equating these killings by blaming the mental minds of the transgenders is despicable. Again the surgery and hormones are a choice for the transgenders and not yours or mine. If they are minors and the parents push for such procedures and medications as they feel that otherwise the mental state of their child makes them suicidal then in those extenuating circumstances they will give their consent. Why are the right politicizing it?

As I said. Its fellow LGBTQ who are questioning it. From the standpoint of personal experiences.

 

[The Oracle]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1642980256981176322

These people need to be locked away....What madness.

 

[bver_hunter]

As I said. Its fellow LGBTQ who are questioning it. From the standpoint of personal experiences.

You may have a handful of them that were wrongly treated. But that does not mean that the vast majority of LGBTQ do not appreciate the present status and their freedoms to decide their own destination in life!!

 

[Butler1000]

You may have a handful of them that were wrongly treated. But that does not mean that the vast majority of LGBTQ do not appreciate the present status and their freedoms to decide their own destination in life!!

You really didn't read anything I said did you?

Here.....

Members of the gay community are speaking up saying that people saying they are trans as youths may well just be confused and gay. That they may be mistaking simple feminine traits in men as gender disphoria when they are just plain ol' gay. And that its better to wait until adulthood when they have had a chance to experience sex and life before going so far as to prescribe puberty blockers and hormones which will make things worse.

As well it should be noted the surgery does pretty much sterilize people. And is irreversible. So far better to wait and get it right.

So it has nothing to do with gay rights or status. Its about common sense. Coming from people who have been there.

 

[jcpro]

You really didn't read anything I said did you?

Here.....

Members of the gay community are speaking up saying that people saying they are trans as youths may well just be confused and gay. That they may be mistaking simple feminine traits in men as gender disphoria when they are just plain ol' gay. And that its better to wait until adulthood when they have had a chance to experience sex and life before going so far as to prescribe puberty blockers and hormones which will make things worse.

As well it should be noted the surgery does pretty much sterilize people. And is irreversible. So far better to wait and get it right.

So it has nothing to do with gay rights or status. Its about common sense. Coming from people who have been there.

As I recall, something like 90% of youths with gender dysphoria, when only offered psychological support, mature into homosexual individuals. First do no harm!!(or at least as little harm as possible).

 

[Frankfooter]

As I recall, something like 90% of youths with gender dysphoria, when only offered psychological support, mature into homosexual individuals. First do no harm!!(or at least as little harm as possible).

How many just turn into guys who like the occasional tranny?

The GOP really is turning into the party of assholes. You couldn't pick a smaller and more demonized minority to attack if you tried.

 

[jcpro]

How many just turn into guys who like the occasional tranny?

The GOP really is turning into the party of assholes. You couldn't pick a smaller and more demonized minority to attack if you tried.

Imm....I think you got it backwards. They are doing the attacking. With scary black guns, killing children.