If you look at stats with park adjusted figures Walker is still better. WAR and OPS+ take into account which ballparks they play in.
Jeff Kent MLB
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Don't blame The Boss for that trade.
"Buhner was a good prospect, no question about it.
But my baseball people loved Ken Phelps' bat.
They kept saying Ken Phelps, Ken Phelps."
Gary Carter was a no doubt Hall of Famer.
Santo, while no Mike Schmidt (who is?) is a perfectly cromulent Hall of Famer.
Gary Carter -- It looks like Carter's HOF controversy was whether he goes in as an Expo or a Met. Yay, he went in as a Montreal Expo.
en.wikipedia.org
Ron Santo
baseballpastandpresent.com
Gary Carter - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Ron Santo
Does he belong in the Hall of Fame? Ron Santo – Baseball: Past and Present
baseballpastandpresent.com
Buhner like Brett Boone before him has PED user written all over him.
Hard to predict he would go that route....
Examining Larry Walker's numbers: Coors vs. Non-Coors
In our continuing series on the Hall of Fame candidates for this year's ballot, Larry Walker is being examined Thursday. As part of Walker's case, we simply cannot ignore what Coors Field did for his numbers. It has to be part of the argument, even if you're pro-Walker.
www.cbssports.com
Hmmm.....This doesn't agree with that stance.
Can you use WAR to compare how tough and important the catching position is to the other positions?
Santo was better than the stats reflect. They what lowered the mound after the 68 season when he already played 8 of his 14 seasons in the bigs.Gary Carter -- It looks like Carter's HOF controversy was whether he goes in as an Expo or a Met. Yay, he went in as a Montreal Expo.
Gary Carter - Wikipedia
Ron Santo
Does he belong in the Hall of Fame? Ron Santo – Baseball: Past and Present
He was a top defender as well.
I listened to a fair deal of his games and he a force at 3b.
Players of that era I always give the benefit of the doubt to. They didn't have the advances medical knowledge and rehabilitation strategies that we have today.
The slightest injuries could be career threatening. Santos I believe was a diabetic as well. That couldn't have been easy..
That's a good point. While I'm not 100% versed on the mechanics of WAR, I guess you still have to compare catchers to replacements. It's a very tough position, but you will never be able to measure intangibles.
I, like many stat-conscious baseball fans, think intangibles are overrated in baseball. The exception might be catcher because of the catcher's relationship to the pitcher. Something more is clearly going on at that position when catchers make up a disproportionate amount of managers in the game.
No one touches the ball more than the catcher, throwing and fielding, and in some difficult situations...some defensive players may not touch it all or just handle it to make routine easy plays.
Another thing about intangibles over stats...the stat says you caught a fly ball, F8 if you will, it doesn’t say if you camped under for an easy putout or crashed the wall for it...it doesn’t say if you hustled to second for a two -base hit or bounced one of the wall and cruised in easily.
There is lots of instances where stats don’t measure intangibles.
Santo was a good HOF selection. He was very close to Brooks Robinson as the two best 3rd basemen of the Sixties. While Brooks was "the Human Vacuum Cleaner", Santo was a better hitter and no slouch defensively with five Gold Gloves. The two also played in a dead ball era so their hitting stats don't pop out versus later players.
There are stats that measure defensive range. The stat wonks have broken down many aspects of the game. When there are tens of millions of dollars on the line, the teams are looking for any edge they can find.
Positional value is included in the calculation. You can get the Baseball Reference versions of the calculations off their site.
Here's a link to a 2015 Fangraphs story that talks about WAR and the differences across positions : https://tht.fangraphs.com/re-examining-wars-defensive-spectrum/
Fielding has always been tough to accurately measure and even more so now, in my opinion thanks to all the shifting that is done. Is one of the reasons why I prefer oWAR to measure only offense.
Also, back to Jeff Kent, Lou Whitaker needs to be corrected before debating Jeff Kent's eligibility. I could argue Bobby Grich also goes in before Kent. Higher career WAR and OPS+.
Also, to add to the controversy about Ron Santo, I had his baseball card when I was a kid, along with fellow Cubs, mostly bums, Ernie Broglio, Dick Ellsworth, Joe Amalfitano and the great Chuck Hartenstein. He was a major part of the Chicago Cubs teams that would lead the league until June of each year and finish well back at season's end. The Cubs had the players, HOF players Ernie Banks, Billy Williams and Ferguson Jenkins. They also had good players such as Don Kessinger, Bill Hands, Lew "Turkey" Burdette, Harvey Kuenn, Randy Hundley and Ted Abernathy in the bullpen. They, along with the 1964 Phillies, were the perennial under achievers of the National League.
The Cubs had four future Hall of Famers on the team year after year and went nowhere. What a waste.
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Examining Larry Walker's numbers: Coors vs. Non-Coors
In our continuing series on the Hall of Fame candidates for this year's ballot, Larry Walker is being examined Thursday. As part of Walker's case, we simply cannot ignore what Coors Field did for his numbers. It has to be part of the argument, even if you're pro-Walker.
Hmmm.....This doesn't agree with that stance.
And from the article you posted:
Note that Walker had more than twice as many plate appearances and at-bats outside Coors. Considering that, he's awfully close in the other categories.
I guess the old adage that "you can make stats say what you want them to say" applies here.
Reminds me of my favorite Toby Harrah quote: “Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything.”
