Two Biological Males Allowed to Fight in Female Div. At Paris Olympics

The Oracle

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From what I can tell, it seems the difference between the IOC Paris Boxing Unit vs the IBF is that the IOC allows female athletes with XY chromosomes to compete as women as long as their hormones are within the allowable range for women; the IBF, on the other hand, will not allow women with an XY chromosome to compete and would maintain that she is not a woman.

It also seems that there is some rather serious conflict between the IOC and the IBA. Again, from the article I posted above:

“In June 2023, the IOC stripped the IBA of its right to govern international amateur boxing owing to the IBA's alleged failure to reform certain financial, ethical, and governance-related issues.”

Basically, the IOC flat out accused the IBA of being too corrupt and untrustworthy to be allowed to regulate the Olympics and they thus took over with their own committee.

It’s thus understandable that people are upset as there is confusion and mixed messaging coming from different outlets. Unfortunately, it also seems that the usual far right suspects who rage-watch the Olympics for no other purpose than to find things to be aggrieved over seized on the confusion to pedal their own anti-trans narrative; in so doing, they have (as always) added a whole layer of rage-fuelled toxicity to a conversation that might otherwise have been more productive.
You know KB we've been around long enough to know that the IOC is in no position to call anybody corrupt and untrustworthy, lol...Probably they weren't getting greased enough.

In this case, being intersex is going to give this individual a distinct advantage in a one on one competition that can have dire consequences. This isn't swimming or cycling.
 
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Knuckle Ball

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You know KB we've been around long enough to know that the IOC is in no position to call anybody corrupt and untrustworthy, lol...Probably they weren't getting greased enough.

In this case, being intersex is going to give this individual a distinct advantage in a one on one competition that can have dire consequences. This isn't swimming or cycling.
FWIW…Neither of these athletes identifies as intersex.

Anyway, I agree that the IOC is not known as a paragon of virtue…I suspect the IBA is no better but at this point I don’t know enough about either to have a well formed opinion.

As far as the risk, though, I respectfully disagree. Some athletes are always gonna have a genetic advantage over others. Why is this different?

Back in the day, if you stepped into the ring with Mike Tyson there was a high probability that you are gonna get knocked the fuck out. For whatever reason, he was just able to punch harder than anyone else. Is that fair? Yes…I believe it is. If Tyson was taking steroids then it would not be fair…but being born with an innate advantage over your opponent is frequently what gets athletes into the Hall of Fame.
 

Knuckle Ball

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Boban Marjanović plays basketball for the Houston Rockets. He is 7’ 4” tall- he has been diagnosed with Gigantism- a disorder of the pituitary gland that causes him to be unusually tall. Should he be banned from the NBA?

.


Andre the Giant was also diagnosed with Gigantism. Should he have been banned from wrestling?

 

Skoob

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She's not a man.
Declaring her a man puts her in danger in Algeria, where there is serious anti trans hate.
Sure...all women have XY chromosomes and man-like testosterone levels.
 
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Bucktee

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I just finished watching the Khelif vs Carini fight.
  • I have to question Carini's heart for quitting so soon. But I have to respect her decision if she felt a safety issue for her well being.
I suspect she planned to quit long before the fight even started to prove a point while leaving naysayers unable to label her a hater, a transphobe, etc.

If she refused to fight on the basis that her competitor is not a woman, she'd be labelled and her career damaged. If she fights and gets hit, nobody can tell her that she wasn't hit harder than she's ever been hit and that she felt for her safety.

One has to tread carefully so that they don't lose their livelihood or get cancelled.

She played it smart.
 

danmand

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It is clearly a very difficult situation, with more serious complications, because it happens in boxing, instead of in 400 m racing (as with the South African athlete).

But it is disingenious to describe it as simply as " a man hitting a women".

The Algerian athlete was born with full female reproductive organs, and has lived her entire life as a girl/women.
 
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Skoob

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Knuckle Ball

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Caster Semenya went through a similar series of questions regarding her gender:


Caster Semenya
Mokgadi Caster Semenya OIB (born 7 January 1991) is a South African middle-distance runner and winner of two Olympic gold medals[4] and three World Championships in the women's 800 metres. She first won gold at the World Championships in 2009 and went on to win at the 2016 Olympics and the 2017 World Championships, where she also won a bronze medal in the 1500 metres. After the doping disqualification of Mariya Savinova, she was also awarded gold medals for the 2011 World Championships and the 2012 Olympics.[5][6][7]

Following Semenya's victory at the 2009 World Championships, she was made to undergo sex testing, and cleared to return to competition the following year.[8][9] The decision to perform sex testing sparked controversy in the sporting world and in Semenya's home country of South Africa. Later reports disclosed that Semenya has the intersex condition 5α-reductase 2 deficiency and natural testosterone levels in the typical male range.[10][11]

In 2019, new World Athletics rules came into force preventing athletes like Semenya with certain disorders of sex development (DSDs) from participating in 400m, 800m, and 1500m events in the female classification, unless they take medication to suppress their testosterone levels. Semenya has filed a series of legal cases to restore her ability to compete in these events without testosterone suppression, arguing that the World Athletics rules are discriminatory.[12]

Early life and education
Semenya was born in Ga-Masehlong, a village in South Africa near Polokwane, and grew up in the village of Fairlie in South Africa's northern Limpopoprovince. She has three sisters and a brother.[13][14]

Semenya attended Nthema Secondary School and the University of North Westas a sports science student.[15][16] She began running as training for association football.[17]

Intersex condition
Although Semenya was assigned female at birth,[18][19] she has the intersexcondition 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency (5-ARD).[10][11][18] This condition only affects genetic males with XY chromosomes. Individuals with 5-ARD have normal male internal structures that are not fully masculinised during the development of the reproductive system in utero, due to low levels of the hormone dihydrotestosterone (DHT). As a result, the external genitalia may appear ambiguous or female at birth.[20][21][22]

Semenya has said that she was born with a vagina and internal undescended testes, but that she has no uterus or fallopian tubes and does not menstruate.[11][23][24] Her internal testes produce natural testosterone levels in the typical male range.[11][25] Semenya has rejected the label of "intersex", calling herself "a different kind of woman."[25]




Legal cases against World Athletics
In June 2018, Semenya announced that she would legally challenge the IAAF rules, calling them "discriminatory, irrational, [and] unjustifiable".[106] She claimed that testosterone-suppressing medication, which she had taken from 2010 to 2015, had made her feel "constantly sick" and caused her abdominal pain, and that the IAAF had used her as a "guinea pig" to test the medication's effects.[107]

The case divided legal and scientific commentators. Duke Law Schoolprofessor and former middle-distance runner Doriane Lambelet Colemanargued that the organization's rules guaranteed a "protected space" for female athletes. Physician and genetics researcher Eric Vilain argued in favor of Semenya, claiming that "sex is not defined by one particular parameter... it's so difficult to exclude women who've always lived their entire lives as women."[108]During the proceedings, the IAAF clarified that the regulations would only apply to DSD athletes with XY chromosomes.[98][109]

In May 2019, the Court of Arbitration for Sport rejected Semenya's challenge in a 2–1 decision, paving the way for the new rules to come into effect. Although the CAS agreed with Semenya that the rules were discriminatory, it concluded that this discrimination was "a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of achieving the IAAF's aim of preserving the integrity of female athletics".[110][111]

That same month, Semenya appealed the decision to the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland. The court provisionally suspended the World Athletics rules while deciding whether to issue an interlocutory injunction in June.[112]However, this decision was reversed in July, leaving Semenya unable to compete in World Athletics races between 400m and one mile while her appeal continued.[113]

The Swiss supreme court ultimately dismissed Semenya's appeal in September 2020. In its decision, the court affirmed that the CAS had the right to uphold World Athletics' rules "in order to guarantee fair competition for certain running disciplines in female athletics."[114] The court also declared that because Semenya was "free to refuse treatment to lower testosterone levels," her "guarantee of human dignity" was not violated.[115]

In February 2021, Semenya again appealed the case to the European Court of Human Rights.[116] In March 2023, World Athletics made its rules for Semenya and other DSD athletes even more restrictive, requiring them to lower their testosterone levels below a threshold of 2.5 nmol/L for at least 24 months before competing.[117] The ECHR ruled in Semenya's favor in a 4–3 decision in July 2023, finding that the competition rules had discriminated against her and infringed on her human rights. However, the decision did not overturn the rules themselves, and World Athletics stated that the regulations would "remain in place."[118]

After a request from the Swiss government, Semenya's case was referred to the ECHR's Grand Chamber in November 2023 for a final ruling.[119]



 
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Bucktee

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They are! But they just aren't born women so when it come to the physique, some fundamental stuff cannot be changed.
The "fundamental stuff" that cannot be changed is their sex. A man cannot become a woman and vice versa. No amount of surgeries or drugs changes that because it's "fundamental".
 
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Knuckle Ball

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Was it fair when The Aliens stole the NBA players’ talent in Space Jam?


The NBA players were born with their talent. They developed their talent through hard work and dedication but they had the talent to begin with. No surgery…no steroids…all natural.
 

gollumtroll

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I guarantee you that a trained boxer who’s a male would NEVER lose to a trained boxer who’s a woman.
Look up Margaret Macgregor.
That should shut your mouth up and stop you from continuing to look stupid.

On second thought, let me help you...

https://boxingnewsonline.net/margaret-mcgregor-and-the-forgotten-battle-of-the-sexes/

So much for your worthless (and clueless) guarantee Mr. tough guy.
You didn't even read the article you provided ... Let me share a quote from it:

' Chow, a 5ft 2ins former jockey, entered “The Battle of the Sexes” with a winless two-fight pro record, no known amateur background, a 5ins height disadvantage and, at 123lbs, conceded five pounds in weight. '.

I wonder what you were thinking?
 
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The Oracle

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FWIW…Neither of these athletes identifies as intersex.
Doesn't matter what they identify as....When it comes to athletic competition their chromosomes indicate intersex. The IBA made the right on this one.


As far as the risk, though, I respectfully disagree. Some athletes are always gonna have a genetic advantage over others. Why is this different?
I have this sneaking suspicion based on what I see that this person has a testosterone level that would only be present in males. Undescended testes producing testosterone since puberty do not make for a fair playing surface.
Back in the day, if you stepped into the ring with Mike Tyson there was a high probability that you are gonna get knocked the fuck out. For whatever reason, he was just able to punch harder than anyone else. Is that fair? Yes…I believe it is. If Tyson was taking steroids then it would not be fair…but being born with an innate advantage over your opponent is frequently what gets athletes into the Hall of Fame.
Love Mike's present day Lazarus impression but Buster Douglas put an end to that myth a long time ago in Tokyo. Every era in the heavyweight division had it's brutes. There was Foreman, Shavers, Lyle, Liston, Marciano, Joe Lewis. None of which I'm to have the audacity to state had a distinct hormonal advantage over thier peers. Hormones drive the genetic engine athletic greatness.
 

The Oracle

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''A normal testosterone level for you will depend on your gender and age. Normal total testosterone results in adult men: Ages 19 to 49 -- 249 - 836 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dL) Ages 50 and older -- 193 - 740 ng/dL.''

''Normal total testosterone results in adult women: Ages 19 to 49 -- 8 - 48 ng/dL. Ages 50 and older -- 2 - 41 ng/dL''


There's quite a possible difference here folks....Release the hounds...Errr the numbers. Let's see what we're looking at.
 

Knuckle Ball

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Doesn't matter what they identify as....When it comes to athletic competition their chromosomes indicate intersex. The IBA made the right on this one.
Well…if the purpose of the exercise is to determine what is fair then I think the best approach is to be guided by scientific study of gender and what it means to be “male” vs “female.” At this point, it seems to me that the IOC’s position is the most consistent with our current best-understanding of how to address this issue. As in all things, the science will evolve and change over time and as it does our understanding of what is fair will (hopefully) evolve as well.



I have this sneaking suspicion based on what I see that this person has a testosterone level that would only be present in males. Undescended testes producing testosterone since puberty do not make for a fair playing surface.
They checked the boxer’s testosterone and it is within IOC limits. It Says so in the article you posted earlier.


Love Mike's present day Lazarus impression but Buster Douglas put an end to that myth a long time ago in Tokyo. Every era in the heavyweight division had it's brutes. There was Foreman, Shavers, Lyle, Liston, Marciano, Joe Lewis. None of which I'm to have the audacity to state had a distinct hormonal advantage over thier peers. Hormones drive the genetic engine athletic greatness.
Like most people, I hope that Mike slaps the shit out of Jake Paul and humiliates him at what will undoubtedly be a huge pay per view audience.

🥊
 
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Knuckle Ball

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Oh, so now having a vagina makes you a woman? But a week ago it didn't matter. :rolleyes:
Khelif was born with a vagina, identifies as female, and has lived as a female her entire life.

She also meets all of the IOC’s eligibility criteria including having hormone levels within the IOC’s allowable range.

There are other athletes with this medical situation whose natural hormone levels are outside the IOC’s allowable range and they are not allowed to compete unless they take hormone-suppressing medication. This is the very thing that Caster Semenya is suing the IAAF over at the European Court of Human Rights.

Anyway, as I recall you guys were all about the vagina so not sure why you’re mad.

✌
 

Ghbff

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Look up Margaret Macgregor.
That should shut your mouth up and stop you from continuing to look stupid.

On second thought, let me help you...

https://boxingnewsonline.net/margaret-mcgregor-and-the-forgotten-battle-of-the-sexes/

So much for your worthless (and clueless) guarantee Mr. tough guy.
I guess reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit because I said a trained boxer. Does Chow really sound like a trained boxer to you?

“Chow, a 5ft 2ins former jockey, entered “The Battle of the Sexes” with a winless two-fight pro record, no known amateur background, a 5ins height disadvantage and, at 123lbs, conceded five pounds in weight.

Looking back, McGregor says: “He was physically stronger than the average woman boxer… but I was not the average woman boxer. It seemed Chow did not have a lot of ring experience. It went really well. I felt on top of the world.”
 

Ghbff

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So much for your worthless (and clueless) guarantee Mr. tough guy.
Tell me you’ve never stepped into a gym or ring in your life without telling me you’ve never stepped into a gym/ring 😂
 

Ghbff

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You didn't even read the article you provided ... Let me share a quote from it:

' Chow, a 5ft 2ins former jockey, entered “The Battle of the Sexes” with a winless two-fight pro record, no known amateur background, a 5ins height disadvantage and, at 123lbs, conceded five pounds in weight. '.

I wonder what you were thinking?
Reading comprehension isn’t their strong suit LOL. I guarantee that buddy’s never trained a day in his life and he’s coming on here acting like an expert on combat sports.
 

Knuckle Ball

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FWIW…I find it interesting that back when women first participated in the modern Olympics in 1900 no one would have questioned Imane Khelif’s participating as a woman. She had a vagina, lived as a woman, etc. It was not until science developed the ability to identify chromosomes, measure testosterone, etc. that we could even have this conversation.

Back in 1900, people would have no doubt seen Khelif as having “manly” traits and would have probably assumed she was a lesbian but no one would have questioned her gender.

So…at this point, we have whatever it is that represents our best, evidence-based understanding of how to most fairly manage this issue and it will continue to evolve over time.

As to the people who are still angry because they wanted an excuse to bash the trans community and this isn’t it…#sorrynotsorry
 
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