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Turkey downs Russian plane over Syria

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Aardvark154

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Nottyboi and others who posted that this episode was going to prove to have been counter productive for Turkey and its Turkmen allies appear to be on the money.

The Russian Air Force has conducted over a dozen airstrikes today on Turkmen "Democratic Opposition" forces near the Turkish - Syrian border.

(капита́н) Captain Konstantin Murahtin, has been rescued by Russia in a 12-hour long joint operation with the Syrian Army

(подполко́вник) Lieutenant Colonel Oleg Peshkov, is supposedly being posthumously awarded "Russia's highest state honour" now whether by this it is meant The Cross of St. George, 1st Class; Hero of the Russian Federation; or even taken literally the Russian Federation's Order of Saint Andrew; I do not know.
 
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**Sophie**

Did you really think Putin was going to stand by and do nothing?! Not a chance. This is just the beginning game of chess.

Aardvark154 said:
Nottyboi and others who posted that there were going to prove to have been a pyrrhic victory for Turkey and its Turkmen allies appear to be on the money.

The Russian Air Force has conducted over a dozen airstrikes today on Turkmen "Democratic Opposition" forces near the Turkish - Syrian border.

(капита́н) Captain Konstantin Murahtin, has been rescued by Russia in a 12-hour long joint operation with the Syrian Army

(подполко́вник) Lieutenant Colonel Oleg Peshkov, is supposedly being posthumously awarded "Russia's highest state honour" now whether by this it is meant The Cross of St. George, 1st Class; Hero of the Russian Federation; or even taken literally the Russian Federation's Order of Saint Andrew; I do not know.
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fuji

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Apparently the Russian bombers have been targeting civilians in ethnic Turk areas in Syria, including dropping cluster bombs on villages and towns: a war crime.

Turkey may appear to be trigger happy here, but they were also watching with outrage as Russian aircraft targeted their kin on the ground.

Turkey repeatedly complained to Russia about the targeting of ethnic Turk civilians in this area and their complaints were ignored.

Note that the ethnic Turk militias are moderate forces that are in no way allied with ISIL, so Putin is flat out lying when he said they were targeting ISIS.
 
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Aardvark154

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All true Fuji, but screaming Allah Akbar and shooting at aircrew in parachutes (likewise a war crime) doesn't make me think that they are that moderate.
 
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Aardvark154

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fuji said:
I can, however, imagine Erdogan doubling down.
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The problem here in the Summer of 1914 is do we really want Erdogan pushing us all over the cliff.

I certainly hope that behind the scenes the U.S., U.K., France even Canada are all saying to the Government of Turkey - hold on one damn second here.
 
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fuji

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Aardvark154 said:
The problem here in the Summer of 1914 is do we really want Putin pushing us all over the cliff.

I certainly hope that behind the scenes the U.S., U.K. France even Canada are saying to the Government of Russia - hold on one damn second here.
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Fixed your post.
 
S

**Sophie**

" It is only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you learn how to solve problems without violence" lol
 
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IM469

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fuji said:
....-the jets flew over a little strip of Turkey that juts out into Syria, they would only have been over it for seconds.

My guess is that the Turks fired while they were over Turkish territory but that they were over such a short time that they were back of Syria when the missiles hit.
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The jets were over the Turkish border for only 17 seconds but I think Fuji is right. The Russians were not bombing ISIS as they are no where near Turkey's border but they were bombing Syrian rebels that Turkey supports. That is why the parachuting pilots were landing in Rebel controlled territory. The Russian editorial cartoon that shows the Russians stomping on ISIS while Turkey steps up and stabs them in the back is a crock.

eznutz said:
Is Turkey Lying: Rescued Russian Pilot Says There Was No Warning Before F-16 Opened Fire
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Do you really think he would say anything else ? The radio warnings were monitored in Baghdad by the US. If the Russians up the ante, I wonder if Turkey might supply Stinger missiles to the rebels. It would get more awkward for Russia justifying losses to rebels when they supposedly are targeting ISIS.
 
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fuji

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Aardvark154 said:
In some ways Russia did hold on. They had the capacity to shoot down Turkish Fighters deep into Turkish airspace, but let calmer voices prevail.
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Shooting shown planes over your own air space is legal. Trigger happy, but legal. Russia shooting down Turkish planes over Turkey would be yet another provocative act of war on top of the invasion of Turkish territory they already committed.

I'm not supportive of the trigger happy way that Turkey handled this, but it is hypocritical of you to lay the blame on Turkey when the act occurred in response to war crimes committed by Russia, and an aggressive, arrogant disrespect of legitimate Turkish interests by Russia, not to mention Turkish sovereignty.

Russia has repeatedly argued that its use of force in neighboring countries was legitimate because it was protecting ethnic Russians. Isn't Turkey entitled to use force in defence of the ethnic Turks Russia was targeting?
 
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mr bojangles

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Turkey if serious about standing Putin down and reasserting itself only has one real move ,that is to move
ground troops into Syria to protect their kinsmen.
From the looks of it Russia isn't going to back down bombing Turkmen in Syria.
 
mandrill

mandrill

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mr bojangles said:
Turkey if serious about standing Putin down and reasserting itself only has one real move ,that is to move
ground troops into Syria to protect their kinsmen.
From the looks of it Russia isn't going to back down bombing Turkmen in Syria.
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Or tit for tat. Bombing the fuck out of Assad's troops openly and daring him and the Russians to do something about it.
 
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nottyboi

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fuji said:
Turkey isn't allowed to shoot down foreign military jets flying over its territory?

Clearly they are.

Clearly they also didn't give the Russians any inch of leeway.
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Its an issue of proportionality, some thing you seem to not have a very large grasp of. For example, if a bunch of armed thugs break into your house, you would probably could justify blowing them away. But if a someone tough looking stranger knocks on your door, you cannot blow him away through the door. The latter is MURDER the former self defense. The Russian pilot was a soldier doing his job, and his life were taken needlessly by those Turkish scumbags.
 
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nottyboi

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oagre said:
Or tit for tat. Bombing the fuck out of Assad's troops openly and daring him and the Russians to do something about it.
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Turkey has already given the Russians the pretext it needs to deploy S400, once deployed Russia will control Syrian airspace and can close it at will. That will happen within 2 weeks. IMHO Putin probably baited the Turks, it would have been pretty easy to keep some SU30 flying CAP above the bombing zone as they have for many missions. The stupid Turks got sucked in, and have given Russia the moral platform to assume control of Syrian space, of course with the full approval of the sovereign govt of Syria.
 
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nottyboi

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IM469 said:
The jets were over the Turkish border for only 17 seconds but I think Fuji is right. The Russians were not bombing ISIS as they are no where near Turkey's border but they were bombing Syrian rebels that Turkey supports. That is why the parachuting pilots were landing in Rebel controlled territory. The Russian editorial cartoon that shows the Russians stomping on ISIS while Turkey steps up and stabs them in the back is a crock.



Do you really think he would say anything else ? The radio warnings were monitored in Baghdad by the US. If the Russians up the ante, I wonder if Turkey might supply Stinger missiles to the rebels. It would get more awkward for Russia justifying losses to rebels when they supposedly are targeting ISIS.
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If the Turks broadcast on an open frequency, there would be lots of impartial sources to confirm what they said. The Americans cannot really be trusted in this scenario. Did the Canadians hear it? The Brits? Any airliners in the area? BULLSHIT.
 
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