Turkey downs Russian plane over Syria

[nottyboi]

I am very suprised that a bomber wasn't accompanied by Fighter Jets. Bomber is a sitting duck on its own. If a bomber was accompanied by the Jets two pilots would probably still be alive.

The SU-24 is quite a fast plane not a lumbering tank. Capable of close to mach 2. Also Putin was in Turkey just last week and met Edrogan and had discussions with him. This is why he was so bitter. Putin is a very rational man. Edrogan lied to his face and now we will see what happens. To me this is a major miscalculation on the part of Edrogan.

 

[nottyboi]

What I expect to happen is for Syria to cede sovereign control of its airspace to Russia. At which point Russia will close Syrian air space to all nations except the USA and France and only with strict protocols observed. At which point they will pummel the border and restore Syrian control there.

 

[mr bojangles]

What I expect to happen is for Syria to cede sovereign control of its airspace to Russia. At which point Russia will close Syrian air space to all nations except the USA and France and only with strict protocols observed. At which point they will pummel the border and restore Syrian control there.

Agreed ,this partnership is already very successful.

 

[SexyFriendsTO]

The SU-24 is quite a fast plane not a lumbering tank. Capable of close to mach 2. Also Putin was in Turkey just last week and met Edrogan and had discussions with him. This is why he was so bitter. Putin is a very rational man. Edrogan lied to his face and now we will see what happens. To me this is a major miscalculation on the part of Edrogan.

It's fast for a bomber but still a sitting duck if you compare it to F16.

 

[Twister]

The SU-24 is quite a fast plane not a lumbering tank. Capable of close to mach 2. Also Putin was in Turkey just last week and met Edrogan and had discussions with him. This is why he was so bitter. Putin is a very rational man. Edrogan lied to his face and now we will see what happens. To me this is a major miscalculation on the part of Edrogan.

Its Er-dog-an. Erdogan is also angry with Putin because several weeks ago Putin made him wait for a meeting.

 

[nottyboi]

Well, good luck with that. Betcha the militia controls that part of Syria and any Russian special forces teams will have a tough time finding, killing and exiting.

They will offer massive rewards and someone will cough them up. Either that or there will be leaflets dropped, prior to an obliteration from the air. A 3rd option is to muster Iranian and Syrian forces backed by massive airpower to retake that area and seal the border with Turkey.

 

[mandrill]

They will offer massive rewards and someone will cough them up. Either that or there will be leaflets dropped, prior to an obliteration from the air. A 3rd option is to muster Iranian and Syrian forces backed by massive airpower to retake that area and seal the border with Turkey.

The USA is not very successful getting at Islamist leaders by doing those things. Why would the Russians be?

 

[mandrill]

Erdogan is trying to show how strong he is by hitting Putin.


'US believes Russian jet was in Syrian airspace when Turkey shot it down'

United States believes that the Russian jet shot down by Turkey on Tuesday was hit inside Syrian airspace after a brief incursion into Turkish airspace, a US official told Reuters, speaking on condition of anonymity.

The official said that assessment was based on detection of the heat signature of the jet.

President Barack Obama and Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan spoke by phone on Tuesday about the need to de-escalate tensions with Russia after Turkey shot down the Russian warplane near the Turkish-Syrian border, the White House said.

Obama expressed "US and NATO support for Turkey's right to defend its sovereignty," the White House said in a statement.

"The leaders agreed on the importance of de-escalating the situation and pursuing arrangements to ensure that such incidents do not happen again," the statement said.

Erdogan on Tuesday defended Turkey's right to protect its borders after the plane was shot down, an incident he said Turkey had made every effort to avoid.

"Despite being warned 10 times in five minutes because it was coming towards our border, it insisted on continuing its violation. This plane was downed in an intervention by our F-16s," Erdogan said in a speech in Ankara, adding the actions were fully in line with Turkey's rules of engagement.

"The reason why worse incidents have not taken place in the past regarding Syria is the cool-headedness of Turkey. Nobody should doubt that we made our best efforts to avoid this latest incident. But everyone should respect the right of Turkey to defend its borders," he said.

Erdogan hit out at Russia, arguing that their military campaign is targeting many groups opposed to Syrian president al-Assad, and not only Islamic State. "Daesh (Islamic State) terrorists are not present in the area where Syrian Turkmen are living. Nobody should try to lure people. Only Syrian Turkmen who are our relatives are living in that region. They are ostensibly striking against Daesh but they are hitting Syrian Turkmen and Syrian Turkmen are trying to defend their land."

Erdogan also said that Turkey, together with its allies, would soon realize a "humanitarian safe zone" between Syria's Jarablus and the Mediterranean coast.

Responding to the incident earlier on Tuesday, Russian President Vladimir Putin said the plane had been attacked when it was one km inside Syria and warned of "serious consequences" for what he termed a stab in the back administered by "the accomplices of terrorists".

The underlined bits are important. The Turkmen are seen as "related peoples" by the Turks and there are feelings of loyalty. I suspect that it was only a matter of time before Erdogan lashed out at Putin attacking Turkmen dissidents in Syria.

 

[james t kirk]

Actually, Polish Air Force, while inferior, did not use biplanes. It used high wing monoplanes. And it is true that the German pilots routinely shot Polish pilots in their parachutes. It is also a fact that the German pilots routinely strafed refugee streams in Poland and, later, in the Russian campaign. It is also true that Luftwaffe specialized in bombing none military targets during the September campaign. There were quite a few American pilots who witnessed Germans strafing bailing out bomber crews. One American pilot even shot down one such "hero" and then, when he bailed out, shot him to pieces. Sorry to rain on the parade, but Germany practiced total warfare just as their leaders called for it.

Nonsense. I think your slip is showing.

I am reminded about the instance of German fighter pilot Franz Stigler who saved an American bomber crew desperately struggling for survival. Stigler had been dispatched to shoot down a straggler B17 and when he caught up to it, he could not believe what he saw. The B17 was virtually crippled and its crew fighting for their lives. By your account, he should have done his duty and shot it and the crew down. But when he saw that the plane was no longer a threat, he not only spared the crew, but guided it to the coast because the B17 was so badly wrecked, it had no guidance system left.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ane-let-fly-safely-instead-shooting-down.html

There's actually a photo I saw that showed a gathering of over 100 men women and children. They were all American, and none of them would be alive if Franz Stigler had simply shot that B17 down.

 

[james t kirk]

People are pften quite contradictory.

There is a fairly well known (at least in certain circles) story of the captured SAS Officer who was being worked over by a group of Heer soldiers when an SS Officer came in rescued him had the soldiers placed under arrest, made sure he was treated in a hospital before being taken to a POW Camp and checked on him there. After his POW Camp was liberated, said Officer had to be taken to a liberated Death Camp before he would believe that the organization which had saved his life from supposedly the "better Germans" was capable of the atrocities it committed.

There were many different divisions within the SS.

There were the elite fighters and there were the monsters who ran the concentration camps. Not the same group of people.

 

[fuji]

Are you talking about the one the Americans shot down or the one that was shot down over Ukraine. In both cases unintentional no? No question about intent here when you warn, and shoot down with an AAM. The Turks murdered a Russian pilot in a premeditated act. Of that there is no question. Whatever you think about the Russians and some of the friction they have, I in NO WAY consider them the "enemy" and it is really sad when a pilot who is fighting the same enemy that threatens people in the west is killed by some douchebag terror funding muslim state.

I see you have changed your tune on intentionality. On all the Israel/Gaza threads you insisted that intentionality was irrelevant and all that mattered was how many civilians died.

We'll get along fine if you consistently stick to this new found respect you have for the principle of intentionality, otherwise I'm going to laugh at you from thread to thread.

 

[fuji]

I don't get it....

All along Turkey has been crying for help fighting Isis.

Nonstop if I recall.

Now here comes Russia wanting to fight Isis, which is what Turkey wants, and blam, Turkey shoots down the Russians.

What am I missing here?

Turkey doesn't give a shit about fighting ISIS. Turkey *loves* ISIS. Turkey is pleased as punch that ISIS is keeping the Kurds busy.

Which is why every ISIS fighter who went to Syria travelled through Turkey and no Turkish border guard ever said boo.

Turkey's attitude may change as ISIS starts to attack Turkish targets--but they are a little short sighted there and probably won't realize the shit storm they brewed up until it blows up in their faces (literally) in Ankara.

 

[fuji]

The SU-24 is quite a fast plane not a lumbering tank. Capable of close to mach 2. Also Putin was in Turkey just last week and met Edrogan and had discussions with him. This is why he was so bitter. Putin is a very rational man. Edrogan lied to his face and now we will see what happens. To me this is a major miscalculation on the part of Edrogan.

Fascist vs Islamist, and you have picked a side. Hilarious.

 

[mandrill]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34917485

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34914375

BBC summary of the incident.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34910389

The Turkmen Connection with Turkey.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-23849587

The international players involved in the Syrian power struggle.

 

[mandrill]

Nonsense. I think your slip is showing.

I am reminded about the instance of German fighter pilot Franz Stigler who saved an American bomber crew desperately struggling for survival. Stigler had been dispatched to shoot down a straggler B17 and when he caught up to it, he could not believe what he saw. The B17 was virtually crippled and its crew fighting for their lives. By your account, he should have done his duty and shot it and the crew down. But when he saw that the plane was no longer a threat, he not only spared the crew, but guided it to the coast because the B17 was so badly wrecked, it had no guidance system left.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ane-let-fly-safely-instead-shooting-down.html

There's actually a photo I saw that showed a gathering of over 100 men women and children. They were all American, and none of them would be alive if Franz Stigler had simply shot that B17 down.

The above and your other post. War can be very quirky. People can have totally different attitudes on the same side and even from day to day. There were RAF pilots who strafed Luftwaffe bail-outs and other RAF pilots who would never have dreamed of doing so. Add in that Germans considered the Poles "Untermenschen" and the Americans equal to themselves.

 

[scouser1]

Anyone who believes the Russian song and dance about fighting ISIS is fooling themselves or a shill for Putin and Russia Today. It has been proven over and over again Russian targets have been deliberately against the Free Syrian Army and other moderate Islamic groups fighting the Assad regime and ISIS. The only Russian objective is the same as the Iranians and Hezbollah, to save the Assad regime and what is more hilarious is the Assad regime despite having the Russian air force backing it has not gained a single inch of territory from the rebels and in some parts around Hama and idlib actually lost territory. Good for the Syrian rebels for sending out a signal to Putin, Khameini and Nasrallah which is if you come to their country to kill their own people, there is a very good chance you are going home in a pine box like the 2 pilots if they are actually dead.

 

[**Sophie**]

The journey of a barrel of oil

 

[james t kirk]

Anyone who believes the Russian song and dance about fighting ISIS is fooling themselves or a shill for Putin and Russia Today. It has been proven over and over again Russian targets have been deliberately against the Free Syrian Army and other moderate Islamic groups fighting the Assad regime and ISIS. The only Russian objective is the same as the Iranians and Hezbollah, to save the Assad regime and what is more hilarious is the Assad regime despite having the Russian air force backing it has not gained a single inch of territory from the rebels and in some parts around Hama and idlib actually lost territory. Good for the Syrian rebels for sending out a signal to Putin, Khameini and Nasrallah which is if you come to their country to kill their own people, there is a very good chance you are going home in a pine box like the 2 pilots if they are actually dead.

I have some bad news for you.

The so called "free Syrian army" and "moderate Muslims " are the same as Isis, plus or minus 10 percent.

Even Israel (which despises Assad because Assad wants the Golan Heights back) ha now changed their tune and they support Assad.

Assad has always opposed Islamo Fascism.

 

[nottyboi]

Anyone who believes the Russian song and dance about fighting ISIS is fooling themselves or a shill for Putin and Russia Today. It has been proven over and over again Russian targets have been deliberately against the Free Syrian Army and other moderate Islamic groups fighting the Assad regime and ISIS. The only Russian objective is the same as the Iranians and Hezbollah, to save the Assad regime and what is more hilarious is the Assad regime despite having the Russian air force backing it has not gained a single inch of territory from the rebels and in some parts around Hama and idlib actually lost territory. Good for the Syrian rebels for sending out a signal to Putin, Khameini and Nasrallah which is if you come to their country to kill their own people, there is a very good chance you are going home in a pine box like the 2 pilots if they are actually dead.

Such moderates, shooting helpless men hanging from parachutes. Savages like these need to be exterminated.

 

[SkyRider]

shooting helpless men hanging from parachutes.

They said those "helpless men" were trying to bomb them before they became "helpless". Just saying, not trying to justify anything.