Turkey downs Russian plane over Syria

[TESLAMotors]

Maybe not France, but Turkey? Regardless, NATO is now involved.
I posted this before, but this is very, very real.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/paris-...ntervene-in-syria-and-the-middle-east/5489159

 

[mandrill]

Hmm they seem to confirm the plane was hit over Syrian airspace. Gave their names as well!! Why not add their GPS coordinates. Those are a groups of dead men. Russia will hunt them down like dogs.

Well, good luck with that. Betcha the militia controls that part of Syria and any Russian special forces teams will have a tough time finding, killing and exiting.

 

[jcpro]

Well, good luck with that. Betcha the militia controls that part of Syria and any Russian special forces teams will have a tough time finding, killing and exiting.

Russians will not go with special forces. They'll bring in a mechanized regiment or two and a division of paratroops and start sweeping the country side. Edrogan is not a leader's anus. By shooting down one plane, he ensured Assad's survival. The very thing he wanted avoid.

 

[wilbur]

Immoral and unethical behavior and a war crime.


Further you may have read how Luftwaffe fighter pilots reacted when some Nazi idiot wanted them to strafe Allied pilots in their parachutes - almost to a man they refused saying that besides being immoral, what did they expect would next happen to shot down Luftwaffe pilots.

Actually, it was Reichsmarshall Hermann Goering, commander of the Luftwaffe, who ordered that pilots should not be strafed in their parachutes.

Goering still lived in the era of chivalry and was one of the last WW1 Knights of the Sky: fighter ace with 22 victories, Pour le Mérite winner, and commander of Jagdgeschwader 1 the 'Flying Circus' after the death of Richtofen.

 

[mandrill]

Actually, it was Reichsmarshall Hermann Goering, commander of the Luftwaffe, who ordered that pilots should not be strafed in their parachutes.

Goering still lived in the era of chivalry and was one of the last WW1 Knights of the Sky: fighter ace with 22 victories, Pour le Mérite winner, and commander of Jagdgeschwader 1 the 'Flying Circus' after the death of Richtofen.

This is the same guy who bombed civilians in London and other parts of Britain, right? The same guy who indirectly killed 6 kids in my mom's grade school class one night?

 

[whitewaterguy]

Actually, it was Reichsmarshall Hermann Goering, commander of the Luftwaffe, who ordered that pilots should not be strafed in their parachutes.

Goering still lived in the era of chivalry and was one of the last WW1 Knights of the Sky: fighter ace with 22 victories, Pour le Mérite winner, and commander of Jagdgeschwader 1 the 'Flying Circus' after the death of Richtofen.

Goering quote:

“Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or fascist dictorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peace makers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

 

[jcpro]

Actually, it was Reichsmarshall Hermann Goering, commander of the Luftwaffe, who ordered that pilots should not be strafed in their parachutes

Goering still lived in the era of chivalry and was one of the last WW1 Knights of the Sky: fighter ace with 22 victories, Pour le Mérite winner, and commander of Jagdgeschwader 1 the 'Flying Circus' after the death of Richtofen.

if it were only true... Unfortunately, strafing pilots in parachutes was the norm during the Polish Campaign, quite common during the Battle of Britain, and popular during the defense of the Reich. One reason why the Polish pilots strafed the German pilots-pay back. We must also remember that the German knights of the air had this thing about strafing civilian refugees.

 

[wilbur]

I don't get it....

All along Turkey has been crying for help fighting Isis.

Nonstop if I recall.

Now here comes Russia wanting to fight Isis, which is what Turkey wants, and blam, Turkey shoots down the Russians.

What am I missing here?

Erdogan is playing a double game. Turkey has been buying ISIS oil and his son is deep into it. Turkey's primary aim is to oust Assad because they want to put in his place their own puppet; Turkey has given up on EU membership and is turning East to gain influence. Some say that Erdogan wants to be the next Khalif of the new IS Khaliphate. Along with that, they will not allow the creation of a Kurdish state, especially as it would isolate Turkey's border with Syria; plus, it would (in their minds) encourage Kurdish unrest inside Turkey itself. That's why Turkey has been bombing Kurds in Syria and Iraq (violating both state's airspace and sovereignty) while the latter have been the only US/NATO ground forces effective enough to stand up to ISIS.

Turkey has been aiding and abetting all manner of terrorists entering Syria and Iraq, through its border. As with the US, Turkey is happy letting ISIS doing its dirty work for them by cutting them loose westward so they can undermine and eventually oust Assad. What happens after that would likely be a full scale ground invasion of Syria by Turkey in order to then wipe out ISIS. The Russians are already doing that with the help of Assad's Syrian Arab Army, but obviously, without having ousted Assad first. Assad will allow Kurdish autonomy in Northern Syria and this is against Turkey's interests.

Turkey is attempting to draw NATO onto their side in the region, based on the mutual protection treaties between NATO members. However, it's becoming apparent that at least France and Germany will not buy into that, because Turkish interests do not necessarily correspond with the rest of NATO. In any case, it might result in escalation and eventually a nuclear exchange between the US and Russia.

Ultimatly, the existence of ISIS and its occupation of areas of Syria and Iraq are secondary to global geopolitics between the US and Russia, and regional jockeying for position in the ME between Saudi-Arabia and Iran, and Turkey and Syria.

 

[wilbur]

if it were only true... Unfortunately, strafing pilots in parachutes was the norm during the Polish Campaign, quite common during the Battle of Britain, and popular during the defense of the Reich. One reason why the Polish pilots strafed the German pilots-pay back. We must also remember that the German knights of the air had this thing about strafing civilian refugees.

You have to filter out the propaganda demonizing the enemy in order to whip up popular fervour to go out and fight and recruitment. In fact, people still believe this propaganda, just because they see it in the movies, no matter that those were made in the 1940's. People still believe to this day, for example, that Napoleon was the evil aggressor in Europe, when it was the European monarchies that tried everything to wipe him out because he was the first person other than a royal to rule a country and the monarchies feared popular rebellion. Anglo-Saxon movie industry is highly jingoistic and perpetually gloats at its own side's victory, even though Napoleon's defeat happened 300 years ago.

During the Battle of Britain, German fighter planes did not have the fuel (endurance) to hang around over Britain and look for parachuted pilots, especially when they could be jumped at by enemy fighters at any time over hostile territory. I also don't think that the Polish Air Force had enough planes after a couple of days of fighting to make any difference; the German blitzkrieg blew most of those antiquated biplanes on the ground.

If Allied pilots feared the locals shooting their parachuted pilots, they wouldn't drop their own crewmen over German territory hoping that the Germans could save some of their critically wounded bomber crews. Local German police and paramilitary units quite often rescued downed allied airmen from angry and furious German peasants. There was at least one case of a downed Polish pilot killed by angry English peasants thinking he was German.

 

[Aardvark154]

Well, good luck with that. Betcha the militia controls that part of Syria and any Russian special forces teams will have a tough time finding, killing and exiting.

Doesn't change the fact that shooting aircrew in parachutes is immoral and a war crime*.


* 1949 Geneva Conventions and what has now become a customary rule of War.

 

[Aardvark154]

Actually, it was Reichsmarshall Hermann Goering, commander of the Luftwaffe, who ordered that pilots should not be strafed in their parachutes.

Goering still lived in the era of chivalry and was one of the last WW1 Knights of the Sky: fighter ace with 22 victories, Pour le Mérite winner, and commander of Jagdgeschwader 1 the 'Flying Circus' after the death of Richtofen.

I will stand corrected, thank you.

 

[jcpro]

You have to filter out the propaganda demonizing the enemy in order to whip up popular fervour to go out and fight and recruitment. In fact, people still believe this propaganda, just because they see it in the movies, no matter that those were made in the 1940's. People still believe to this day, for example, that Napoleon was the evil aggressor in Europe, when it was the European monarchies that tried everything to wipe him out because he was the first person other than a royal to rule a country and the monarchies feared popular rebellion. Anglo-Saxon movie industry is highly jingoistic and perpetually gloats at its own side's victory, even though Napoleon's defeat happened 300 years ago.

During the Battle of Britain, German fighter planes did not have the fuel (endurance) to hang around over Britain and look for parachuted pilots, especially when they could be jumped at by enemy fighters at any time over hostile territory. I also don't think that the Polish Air Force had enough planes after a couple of days of fighting to make any difference; the German blitzkrieg blew most of those antiquated biplanes on the ground.

If Allied pilots feared the locals shooting their parachuted pilots, they wouldn't drop their own crewmen over German territory hoping that the Germans could save some of their critically wounded bomber crews. Local German police and paramilitary units quite often rescued downed allied airmen from angry and furious German peasants. There was at least one case of a downed Polish pilot killed by angry English peasants thinking he was German.

Actually, Polish Air Force, while inferior, did not use biplanes. It used high wing monoplanes. And it is true that the German pilots routinely shot Polish pilots in their parachutes. It is also a fact that the German pilots routinely strafed refugee streams in Poland and, later, in the Russian campaign. It is also true that Luftwaffe specialized in bombing none military targets during the September campaign. There were quite a few American pilots who witnessed Germans strafing bailing out bomber crews. One American pilot even shot down one such "hero" and then, when he bailed out, shot him to pieces. Sorry to rain on the parade, but Germany practiced total warfare just as their leaders called for it.

 

[Aardvark154]

This is the same guy who bombed civilians in London and other parts of Britain, right? The same guy who indirectly killed 6 kids in my mom's grade school class one night?

People are pften quite contradictory.

There is a fairly well known (at least in certain circles) story of the captured SAS Officer who was being worked over by a group of Heer soldiers when an SS Officer came in rescued him had the soldiers placed under arrest, made sure he was treated in a hospital before being taken to a POW Camp and checked on him there. After his POW Camp was liberated, said Officer had to be taken to a liberated Death Camp before he would believe that the organization which had saved his life from supposedly the "better Germans" was capable of the atrocities it committed.

 

[mandrill]

You have to filter out the propaganda demonizing the enemy in order to whip up popular fervour to go out and fight and recruitment. In fact, people still believe this propaganda, just because they see it in the movies, no matter that those were made in the 1940's. People still believe to this day, for example, that Napoleon was the evil aggressor in Europe, when it was the European monarchies that tried everything to wipe him out because he was the first person other than a royal to rule a country and the monarchies feared popular rebellion. Anglo-Saxon movie industry is highly jingoistic and perpetually gloats at its own side's victory, even though Napoleon's defeat happened 300 years ago.

During the Battle of Britain, German fighter planes did not have the fuel (endurance) to hang around over Britain and look for parachuted pilots, especially when they could be jumped at by enemy fighters at any time over hostile territory. I also don't think that the Polish Air Force had enough planes after a couple of days of fighting to make any difference; the German blitzkrieg blew most of those antiquated biplanes on the ground.

If Allied pilots feared the locals shooting their parachuted pilots, they wouldn't drop their own crewmen over German territory hoping that the Germans could save some of their critically wounded bomber crews. Local German police and paramilitary units quite often rescued downed allied airmen from angry and furious German peasants. There was at least one case of a downed Polish pilot killed by angry English peasants thinking he was German.

Not a guy who knows anything about Napoleon either, are you? Lots of opinions. Never read a book.

 

[mandrill]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...icopter-shot-down-while-searching-downed-jets

Russian rescue chopper searching for pilots of downed jet also shot down.

 

[jcpro]

People are pften quite contradictory.

There is a fairly well known (at least in certain circles) story of the captured SAS Officer who was being worked over by a group of Heer soldiers when an SS Officer came in rescued him had the soldiers placed under arrest, made sure he was treated in a hospital before being taken to a POW Camp and checked on him there. After his POW Camp was liberated, said Officer had to be taken to a liberated Death Camp before he would believe that the organization which had saved his life from supposedly the "better Germans" was capable of the atrocities it committed.

Was that before or after the Commando Order?

 

[WinterHawk]

Per a blog and so grain of salt but...

http://raedwald.blogspot.com/2015/11/tu ... ssian.html
Turkey's Erdogan hit by Russian destruction of oil convoys
The extent of close involvement of Turkey's corrupt leadership with ISIS has become clear today when an enraged Erdogan ordered retaliation against Russian jets operating over Syria. Erdogan's son Bilal is the man behind the export of ISIS oil to Turkey in huge convoys - convoys that Russia has attacked over the past week, destroying 1,000 tankers in the last 5 days.

Previously, these tankers have been 'off limits' for US and French air attacks. Both countries and the UK were fully aware of the massive extent of ISIS' oil exports to Turkey, but given Erdogan's close family involvement in the business didn't want to provoke him. The Russians, fighting seriously against ISIS, have no such restraints. The Americans have even agreed, given Turkey's support for ISIS, not to launch any anti-ISIS attacks from the US Incirlik airbase

One can imagine the furious and enraged phone calls from Bilal to daddy Erdogan as millions upon millions in corrupt family profits went up in black smoke - and Erdogan eventually ordered Turkish forces to strike against any Russian targets within range.

Make no mistake - Turkey under Erdogan is Europe's real enemy; an ally to ISIS, this corrupt Islamist is playing a dangerous game.


Yeah Erdogan's son has apparently been in charge of the oil stuff. Erdogan conveniently also named him minister of energy today.

Putin spoke up now, said that Russia has been stabbed in the back (echoes of WW1) by Turkey, that they are financing the IS by buying their oil and that they must be considered terrorists. The shootdown will have "serious consequences".
Putin also claimed that the Su-24 was 4 km from Turkish border on the syrian side and posed no threat to Turkey.

Pondering: In the past couple of years I've seen a couple of mentions that some people in Putin's inner circle views Turkey as an usurper state that overthrow the proper orthodox christian Byzantine empire and that this should be rectified. Ie Russia restablish Byzantium.
I've been thinking that this was hot talk intended for domestic consumption, building the rep of Russia as champion of orthodox christianity.
However thinking about it today, could they actually be serious? Do they hope to get the chance to overthrow Turkey as a state?

 

[SexyFriendsTO]

I am very suprised that a bomber wasn't accompanied by Fighter Jets. Bomber is a sitting duck on its own. If a bomber was accompanied by the Jets two pilots would probably still be alive.

 

[shapeup1]

Erdogan is trying to show how strong he is by hitting Putin.


'US believes Russian jet was in Syrian airspace when Turkey shot it down'

United States believes that the Russian jet shot down by Turkey on Tuesday was hit inside Syrian airspace after a brief incursion into Turkish airspace, a US official told Reuters, speaking on condition of anonymity.

The official said that assessment was based on detection of the heat signature of the jet.

President Barack Obama and Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan spoke by phone on Tuesday about the need to de-escalate tensions with Russia after Turkey shot down the Russian warplane near the Turkish-Syrian border, the White House said.

Obama expressed "US and NATO support for Turkey's right to defend its sovereignty," the White House said in a statement.

"The leaders agreed on the importance of de-escalating the situation and pursuing arrangements to ensure that such incidents do not happen again," the statement said.

Erdogan on Tuesday defended Turkey's right to protect its borders after the plane was shot down, an incident he said Turkey had made every effort to avoid.

"Despite being warned 10 times in five minutes because it was coming towards our border, it insisted on continuing its violation. This plane was downed in an intervention by our F-16s," Erdogan said in a speech in Ankara, adding the actions were fully in line with Turkey's rules of engagement.

"The reason why worse incidents have not taken place in the past regarding Syria is the cool-headedness of Turkey. Nobody should doubt that we made our best efforts to avoid this latest incident. But everyone should respect the right of Turkey to defend its borders," he said.

Erdogan hit out at Russia, arguing that their military campaign is targeting many groups opposed to Syrian president al-Assad, and not only Islamic State. "Daesh (Islamic State) terrorists are not present in the area where Syrian Turkmen are living. Nobody should try to lure people. Only Syrian Turkmen who are our relatives are living in that region. They are ostensibly striking against Daesh but they are hitting Syrian Turkmen and Syrian Turkmen are trying to defend their land."

Erdogan also said that Turkey, together with its allies, would soon realize a "humanitarian safe zone" between Syria's Jarablus and the Mediterranean coast.

Responding to the incident earlier on Tuesday, Russian President Vladimir Putin said the plane had been attacked when it was one km inside Syria and warned of "serious consequences" for what he termed a stab in the back administered by "the accomplices of terrorists".

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/US...rian-airspace-when-Turkey-shot-it-down-435275

 

[mr bojangles]

Putin is in Syria to safe guard his only naval base and air base outside of Russia through stabilizing Assad.
Which to date he has being remarkably successful as the Assad regime was on the ropes before he intervened.
Right now the Coalition/Nato wants him as a partner.

Putin will I expect drive a hard bargain with Washington and probably get some sanctions lifted in return for holding his powder with Turkey.
Personally I think the Russian pilots were told to overfly at will Turkish airspace while they were pummelling Turkish proxies in Syria.

In other words Turkey just got successfully baited into over playing their hand-their no flyzone now belongs to Russia.