Turkey downs Russian plane over Syria

wilbur

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Hopefully most people acknowledge that the Iranian troops and Hezbollah have the same agenda and their agenda is mostly aligned with Assad's agenda. Putin's agenda is different (wants to show Russia as a superpower) but in action he is aligning himself with Assad agenda.

The rebels on the other hand have different agendas from each other and to a fair extent want to kill each other as much as they want to kill Assad. There might be some collaboration on specific issues and I'm sure there are people in all groups putting personal profit ahead of politics.
Putin's agenda is quite clear. It's about gas, plus US geopolitics.

1. Gas: Russia is trying to get its gas to European markets. They presently supply 40% of Europe's gas, mainly through the Northstream pipeline, in addition to any gas still flowing through Ukraine. The Southstream pipeline project was abandoned when the EU decreed regulations that Russia could not have a monopoly over its use, despite paying for all of it. Putin told the EU to get stuffed and personally cancelled it. He get a deal with Erdogan in Turkey to run a different route under the Black sea to Turkey, and then to be distributed to Southern Europe. Since then, the deal seems to have been scuppered by Turkish actions and Russian retaliation.

The newest and largest gas find in history is shared by Qatar and Iran in the Arabian/Persian Gulf. Qatar would like to sell this gas by running a pipeline directly to Europe, but it has to run through Syria, thus competing directly with Russia. Syria is Russia's friend and Assad denied Qatar's request to run a pipeline through it. Qatar was furious and decided to undermine the Assad regime by funding Al-Qaida/ISIS terrorists in Syria. There was blowback in Iraq, but the ISIS goal is to oust Assad. Qatar has also been funding other rebels, including the leading Jabhat Al-Nusra. When it was clear that Assad's army was in danger of collapse, Russia intervened in Syria, thus attempting to protect its european gas market by propping up Assad militarily. Saudi Arabia also wants to run a pipeline through Syria, and Prince Bandar actually threatened Putin with unleashing Islamic terrorists (what became ISIS that Saudi Arabia initially funded) into the Caucasus republics of Chechnya and Dagestan if Russia didn't push Assad into accepting; Putin told him to go and fuck himself.

2. US geopolitics. It has been the policy of the US for about 30 years now to isolate the Soviet Union/Russia, undermine it, split it up and exploit its resources. This was the master plan of Zbigniew Brzezinski and his Grand chessboard. It was under him that the US first funded Islamic 'Mujaheddin' (terrorists led by Osama bib-Laden) in order to defeat a competing superpower by proxy in Afghanistan. The US will not tolerate countries that do not comply with its objectives, and the US will engage in regime change, either through military action, or through subversion. Since Putin, Russia has become richer, more powerful and is pursuing its own foreign policy that suit its own goals. The US has overthrown the leaders of at least 40 countries since WW2. The US wants to see Russia out of the Middle East, and wants to see the ex-Soviet republics turn against their former masters. Russia is pushing back now, unlike during the Yeltsin era, when Russia was up for sale (and plunder), and so weak militarily that it did not have any foreign policy interests. Since Brzezinsky, there was the Project for a New American Century written by neocons at the American Enterprise Institute, who became the core of Dubya Bush's cabinet, and who decided to get rid of Saddam because he didn't do what he was told. Gen Wesley Clark, who was the Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, was shown a policy paper that called for the overthrow of 6 Muslim regimes: Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Libya, Iran and Afghanistan. That was in 2001 before 9/11..........

This is the big picture.
 

canada-man

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NATO member Turkey busted for strong ties to Islamic State
image: http://edge.liveleak.com/80281E/u/u/ll2/hd_video_icon.jpg

If Russia knows this stuff then the CIA knows this stuff. At what level is NATO, the CIA and the Obama administration on the other side of this conflict? This would explain why Obama has allegedly been fighting the Islamic State for a year as they grow more powerful and larger.

Yes, Russia is being opportunitic to release this info now after their jet was shot down, but obviously Turkey (or the US) shot down the Russian jet because it was interfering with oil shipments from the Islamic State to Turkey, again, a NATO member!

Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=623_1448735272#lh3eHIA4YjFuZ3uQ.99
 

canada-man

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A Syrian rebel commander who boasted of killing a Russian pilot after Turkey downed Russian jet on Tuesday appeared to be Turkish ultranationalist and a son of former mayor in one of Turkish provinces.
Alparslan Celik, deputy commander of a Syrian Turkmen brigade turned out to be the son of a mayor of a Keban municipality in Turkey’s Elazig province.

He also turned out to be the member of The Grey Wolves ultranationalist group, members of which have carried out scores of political murders since 1970s.

https://www.rt.com/news/323658-turkmen-commander-turkish-ultra/


Meet The Man Who Funds ISIS: Bilal Erdogan, The Son Of Turkey's President

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article43545.htm
 

seth gecko

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Turkish PM Davutoglo & NATO SecGen Stoltenberg have called the incident "unfortunate" and both emphasised Turkeys right to defend its airspace.
This pretty much allows for a "shoot first, ask questions later" approach towards flyovers; something that was strictly avoided during peacetime.
Russia hasn't issued any statement in response to this tomfoolery.......but they did announce that their Su-34's will now be armed with air-to-air missiles while patrolling Syrian airspace.
Daesh hasn't issued any officials statement either, they're undoubtably giving extra thanks in todays prayers for all of this.

Col Kilford (Ret) sums it up to a "T"
http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/kilford-turkey-cant-win-fight-against-russia-syria
 

nottyboi

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Its pretty clear by their ability to retrieve the body of the murdered Russian pilot that Turkey has very strong links to those terrorists. They provided the ironclad proof themselves.
 

Scorpio Rising

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Its pretty clear by their ability to retrieve the body of the murdered Russian pilot that Turkey has very strong links to those terrorists. They provided the ironclad proof themselves.
All the players except Turkey have clearly stated what their agenda is.
Turkey in my view has good reason to stay quiet,as it would point toward supporting ISIL
and opposing both the Kurds ,Assad and Russia.
 

nottyboi

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Putin's agenda is quite clear. It's about gas, plus US geopolitics.

1. Gas: Russia is trying to get its gas to European markets. They presently supply 40% of Europe's gas, mainly through the Northstream pipeline, in addition to any gas still flowing through Ukraine. The Southstream pipeline project was abandoned when the EU decreed regulations that Russia could not have a monopoly over its use, despite paying for all of it. Putin told the EU to get stuffed and personally cancelled it. He get a deal with Erdogan in Turkey to run a different route under the Black sea to Turkey, and then to be distributed to Southern Europe. Since then, the deal seems to have been scuppered by Turkish actions and Russian retaliation.

The newest and largest gas find in history is shared by Qatar and Iran in the Arabian/Persian Gulf. Qatar would like to sell this gas by running a pipeline directly to Europe, but it has to run through Syria, thus competing directly with Russia. Syria is Russia's friend and Assad denied Qatar's request to run a pipeline through it. Qatar was furious and decided to undermine the Assad regime by funding Al-Qaida/ISIS terrorists in Syria. There was blowback in Iraq, but the ISIS goal is to oust Assad. Qatar has also been funding other rebels, including the leading Jabhat Al-Nusra. When it was clear that Assad's army was in danger of collapse, Russia intervened in Syria, thus attempting to protect its european gas market by propping up Assad militarily. Saudi Arabia also wants to run a pipeline through Syria, and Prince Bandar actually threatened Putin with unleashing Islamic terrorists (what became ISIS that Saudi Arabia initially funded) into the Caucasus republics of Chechnya and Dagestan if Russia didn't push Assad into accepting; Putin told him to go and fuck himself.

2. US geopolitics. It has been the policy of the US for about 30 years now to isolate the Soviet Union/Russia, undermine it, split it up and exploit its resources. This was the master plan of Zbigniew Brzezinski and his Grand chessboard. It was under him that the US first funded Islamic 'Mujaheddin' (terrorists led by Osama bib-Laden) in order to defeat a competing superpower by proxy in Afghanistan. The US will not tolerate countries that do not comply with its objectives, and the US will engage in regime change, either through military action, or through subversion. Since Putin, Russia has become richer, more powerful and is pursuing its own foreign policy that suit its own goals. The US has overthrown the leaders of at least 40 countries since WW2. The US wants to see Russia out of the Middle East, and wants to see the ex-Soviet republics turn against their former masters. Russia is pushing back now, unlike during the Yeltsin era, when Russia was up for sale (and plunder), and so weak militarily that it did not have any foreign policy interests. Since Brzezinsky, there was the Project for a New American Century written by neocons at the American Enterprise Institute, who became the core of Dubya Bush's cabinet, and who decided to get rid of Saddam because he didn't do what he was told. Gen Wesley Clark, who was the Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, was shown a policy paper that called for the overthrow of 6 Muslim regimes: Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Libya, Iran and Afghanistan. That was in 2001 before 9/11..........

This is the big picture.
I don't think the Turkish pipeline is scuppered, but it will probably be slowed until Russia can engineer sufficiently bad economic conditions in Turkey to remove Erdogan.
 

basketcase

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Who are the sources for this report?

The pro-opposition Orient TV
The Army of Conquest alliance
UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said (no boots on the ground)

Sure they have not been defeated for 2 months, but things are getting rather warm for your beheading buddies.
Well clearly we should ignore everything the targeted groups say and only listen to the military that is doing the bombing. Unless Israel is involved in which case we should ignore everything the military says and only listen to the groups being targeted.
 

nottyboi

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There is a huge difference between the force that Russia can bring to bear in Russia, and what they can do in Syria or Turkey. Russia doesn't have what it would take to invade Turkey. That is not to say Turkey could threaten Russia in Russia, but in Syria on the ground Turkey can arrange it so lots of Russians die, and there is very little Russia can do about it. Whatever Putin's goals were, he will fail.

Putin should have made a deal with Turkey, not wound up turning them into an evemy. It was just arrogant and stupid, Putin blew it. Yes Ergodan is a hot head, with facsist leanings, just like Putin. It is a pissing contest that is lose/lose for the both of them.
Russia is not gonna invade Turkey. They can undermine Turkey in a million different ways. If they were going to do it though, they would first mass a huge force in Syria and then enter Turkey from that direction and NATO probably would not have time to respond before it is all over. Turkey cannot do much to Russian in Syria because there are only 4000 of them. If they launched an all out attack on the Russian base, they would risk massive retaliation from Russia including tactical nukes. If their ISIS buddies try to attack the base en mass, the Russian air power and artillery will cut them to pieces. The Russians already killed 12 Turks in Syria by bombing a Turkish arms convoy so the payback is well underway.
 

wilbur

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I don't think the Turkish pipeline is scuppered, but it will probably be slowed until Russia can engineer sufficiently bad economic conditions in Turkey to remove Erdogan.
Some report that Erdogan rigged the recent elections. In any case, there were anti Kurdish bombings in Turkey that the latter incredulously blamed on Kurdish 'terrorists' inside of Turkey, but are probably the product of Turkish Intelligence, designed to create a state of fear and get people to vote for the Erdogan promises.

Now that he is reelected, he is seeking constitutional amendments in order to get more powers as president.

Erdogal is starting to behave like the foolish and petulant Enver Pasha, who brought the Ottoman Empire into WW1 on the same side as Germany, and resulted in the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918.

Interesting that Turkey is concerned with its Turkmen kin in Syria. After his ouster as Minister of War and exile from Turkey, Enver tried to rally the Turkic peoples in Asia Minor, and was involved in intrigues, conspiracies and eventual betrayal of Bolshevik Russia.

I wonder if the Turkish military will once again step in as guarantors of Turkish secularism brought about by Mustafa Kamal 'Attaturk', the founder of modern day Turkey.

The past seems to be replaying itself, nearly one hundred years later.
 

TESLAMotors

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This is interesting, considering it's a Russian media outlet, nonetheless, I hope something comes of this.

Putin: Russia Has Evidence Su-24 Shot Down to Protect Daesh Oil Deliveries
http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151130/1031011936/putin-wide-su-24-agreement.html

Discussing the matter with world leaders during the Paris climate talks, Russian President Vladimir Putin said that Moscow has evidence that the Su-24 was shot down by Turkey to protect oil deliveries of the ISIL terrorist group, also known as Daesh, and that oil from IS-controlled fields is being exported to Turkey on an industrial scale.
 

nottyboi

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Armed with a rifle is different than having fighters or air defence missiles
It wasn't a rifle, it was a heavy machine gun on the back of a Toyota truck, yes the Toyota Tacoma Diesel with the Daesh equipment pkg, including bluetooth lol .
 

nottyboi

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Well clearly we should ignore everything the targeted groups say and only listen to the military that is doing the bombing. Unless Israel is involved in which case we should ignore everything the military says and only listen to the groups being targeted.


Israel has targeted the BBC and Amnesty International? Not heard about that one yet.
 

fuji

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And your evidence of this other then pulling it out of your ass as usual?
I already gave you the Times link and others have given you further links. If they are not actively trying to kill civilians they sure as heck aren't doing anything to avoid killing civilians.

We have certainly not seen any of the moral warfare methods pioneered by IDF, warning civilians away from hotspots, roof knocking, highly targeted strikes, etc.

Yes civilians still wind up dying, particularly when the insurgents use them as human shields, but WAY fewer.

As you liked pointing out Israel dropped the equivalent of multiple Hiroshima bombs on Gaza, yet only a small number of civilians were killed.

Assad was killing that many civilians a day at one point and now Russia is making the killing all the more efficient, bombing public markets, cluster bombing around refugee camps, etc.
 

fuji

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A Syrian rebel commander who boasted of killing a Russian pilot after Turkey downed Russian jet on Tuesday appeared to be Turkish ultranationalist and a son of former mayor in one of Turkish provinces.
Alparslan Celik, deputy commander of a Syrian Turkmen brigade turned out to be the son of a mayor of a Keban municipality in Turkey’s Elazig province.

He also turned out to be the member of The Grey Wolves ultranationalist group, members of which have carried out scores of political murders since 1970s.

https://www.rt.com/news/323658-turkmen-commander-turkish-ultra/


Meet The Man Who Funds ISIS: Bilal Erdogan, The Son Of Turkey's President

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article43545.htm
RT is Russian state propaganda, literally, an agency of the Russian state created for making propaganda. Not a valid source in the best of circumstances and has been caught outright lying in matters where Russia has as clear interest. As hard as it is to be even worse than RT, Information clearing house is even worse. Are you able to get valid sources?
 

fuji

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Its pretty clear by their ability to retrieve the body of the murdered Russian pilot that Turkey has very strong links to those terrorists. They provided the ironclad proof themselves.
They have strong links to the Turkish militias, who are not ISIS.

Which is why this is such a blundering fuckup for Putin, he now has ensured strong support from a neighboring state for the guys who will devote themselves to killing Russians until the Russians leave. It is unwinnable fir Russia unless they can placate Turkey now.
 

fuji

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It wasn't a rifle, it was a heavy machine gun on the back of a Toyota truck, yes the Toyota Tacoma Diesel with the Daesh equipment pkg, including bluetooth lol .
Toyota pickup truck technicals are used by practically every militia in the world.
 

wilbur

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I already gave you the Times link and others have given you further links. If they are not actively trying to kill civilians they sure as heck aren't doing anything to avoid killing civilians.

We have certainly not seen any of the moral warfare methods pioneered by IDF, warning civilians away from hotspots, roof knocking, highly targeted strikes, etc.

Yes civilians still wind up dying, particularly when the insurgents use them as human shields, but WAY fewer.

As you liked pointing out Israel dropped the equivalent of multiple Hiroshima bombs on Gaza, yet only a small number of civilians were killed.

Assad was killing that many civilians a day at one point and now Russia is making the killing all the more efficient, bombing public markets, cluster bombing around refugee camps, etc.
You mean this link?

"Are there any western liberal lefty media reports (links?) that say Russia is bombing civilians?
Lots. Here is one:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/w...cle4623770.ece "

The contents contradict its headline:

"Russia drops cluster bombs on Syrian camp"

The article really says that

"Russia fired cluster bombs AROUND border camps housing thousands of Syrian refugees in the weeks...."

"The area AROUND the Yamadi camp, a few hundred metres from the Turkish border, was targeted by Russian strikes three times in the past month."

A clear manipulation that you fell for, especially for those who only read headlines.

So one cluster bomb landed inside another camp. More like a single bomblet from a cluster bomb. Collateral damage, but not any where near the colossal damage to civilians the US did to Fallujah when they retook it from the Iraqi militias. Not like the colossal collateral damage Israel did to Gaza when they killed 2600 civilians the last time they had a go at them; Israel bombed inside the gigantic prison/refugee camp that is Gaza where people have nowhere to go. Then there is the massive bombing campaign Israel (your heroes) did to Lebanon in 2006 when they bombed the Southern suburbs of Beirut and destroyed and killed over 2000 civilians as they flattened scores of apartment buildings just because Hezbollah had a rental office in each one. And your article (if you actually read it) talks of perhaps 50 killed in a wide area with Jihadists hiding among civilians (Israel's typical excuse) in the last 3 weeks.

Here's a recent article from another British source, credible this one, by Robert Fisk of the Independent, about the fantasy that there are actually any moderate rebels in Syria (that Russia is supposed to be bombing instead of terrorists):

"At one point last week, one of Cameron’s satraps was even referring to this phantom army as “ground troops”. I doubt if there are 700 active “moderate” foot soldiers in Syria – and I am being very generous, for the figure may be nearer 70 – let alone 70,000. "

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ever-heard-of-a-moderate-with-a-a6753576.html

The reason some of us watch RT, is to get information that your Mainstream Media Brainwash fails to mention, and frequently redacts to put the government spin on. Also, getting the other side to a story otherwise reported by a bunch of stenographers posing as journalists, who are reduced to printing State Department and Foreign Office press releases, as well as reporting statements by famous NATO ventriloquist puppet Stoltenberg.
 
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