Trump/Zelensky deal turns into Jerry Springer episode

Robert Mugabe

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All the alternatives to end the war suck unless you hold out hope that negotiators can get Putin to leave the Ukraine alone long-term.

Yes, I think you're right. Even a Biden peace deal that was only temporary would have won a Nobel Peace Prize. Henry Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1973 for ending the Vietnam War. North Vietnamese tanks were rolling into Saigon April, 1975. (Please don't explain to me how the Ukraine differs from South Vietnam. The point is about Noble Peace Prizes.)
He won the Nobel Prize same year he instigated the overthrow of the Allende democratic government in Chile. Greenlighted the Indonesian invasion of East Timor. Greenlighted the rise of Pol Pot in Cambodia. Responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of people.
The Trial of Henry Kissinger - Wikipedia
 
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Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
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YOu know why Trump wants something? US spends Trillions and is in debt for Trillions....LoL...that's against efficiency...democrats spent Billions on nonsense...that sesame street in Iran USAID sounds like a good money to help Ukraine now is it?
"Fuck you, pay me" is totally Trump.
I get that.

He insists people pay him, he doesn't pay his bills or honor his contracts.

That's the Trump way.
 
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oil&gas

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Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
..................
And Zelensky is hellbent on getting funding because his country is being invaded and they are fighting for their sovereignty. There is no better reason.
............
I think there is better reason for Trudeau not to give away as
much aid as billions of dollars to Zelensky other than the one
you cited. And I am sure majority of world leaders would not
even have to figure out what that reason is as it is so obvious.
You don't have to give away taxpayers' money just because some
country is invaded and its leader is hellbent on getting your money.

Were I in Zelensky's shoes I would be hellbent on getting funding too.
My country was being invaded would only be the secondary reason of it
though. The primary reason would be having a handful of financial
backers among leaders of world's most affluent nations.
 

Shaquille Oatmeal

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I think there is better reason for Trudeau not to give away as
much aid as billions of dollars to Zelensky other than the one
you cited. And I am sure majority of world leaders would not
even have to figure out what that reason is as it is so obvious.
You don't have to give away taxpayers' money just because some
country is invaded and its leader is hellbent on getting your money.

Were I in Zelensky's shoes I would be hellbent on getting funding too.
My country was being invaded would only be the secondary reason of it
though. The primary reason would be having a handful of financial
backers among leaders of world's most affluent nations.
If it was just some country being invaded then no country would have funded Ukraine.
Western nations have an interest in Europe and particularly in containing Russia.
 
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Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
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This seems very vague. Great opportunity to critique Trump again though.
It is vague.
I don't know what a final negotiated security guarantee would look like.
You also need to find countries willing to step into that role.
The composition of one now is going to look different than one might have looked like pre-invasion.

And Trump deserves the critique.
You may think dissolving NATO is a good thing, there have long been arguments for fundamentally changing it, restructuring it, or even disbanding it, but it would be silly to say that Trump hasn't repeatedly expressed a desire to exit or dismantle it.
He's been saying that for 8 years or more.

There are dozens of military alliances in existence.
Could one just step in and take NATO's place?
Of course not.
But there are various configurations that could step up to fill a void if NATO vanishes.
In fact, that's almost inevitable, since a new global situation will mean realignment in various ways.

Given the drumbeating of the Trump-Russia conspiracy theme, most people would think the pause would at least last through Trump's four year term.
I think that would be likely.
If the idea is that Putin wants Trump to look like he got a win, then he has little reason to press the war as long as he can also sell it domestically at home.
A short pause might also happen, though, since Putin could just start up again, blame Ukraine and the rest of Europe, and count on the US to stay out of it.

If he thinks the new situation means he can get what he wants, why not do it?
(A lot would depend on what the cease fire or peace deal negotiations end up with, of course. If Putin has gotten what he wants from those, he may well see no reason to spend further military resources in Ukraine, preferring to spend them elsewhere.)


I think a lot of Americans, Ukrainians and even Canadians would welcome the EU stepping up.
Containment ain't pretty.
The less reliable the US appears, the more Europe will have to decide if they step up and in what way.
 

Valcazar

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wait wait wait...I thought y'all liberals believe Trump is Putin's bitch? now he's able to encourage Putin? 😂 😂
You seem to think he has a lot of sway, so why not?

All the alternatives to end the war suck unless you hold out hope that negotiators can get Putin to leave the Ukraine alone long-term.
Hence the need for a security guarantee.

But yes, there is a war.
Wars suck and the endings to wars aren't really happy fun things where nothing sucks either.

Yes, I think you're right. Even a Biden peace deal that was only temporary would have won a Nobel Peace Prize. Henry Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1973 for ending the Vietnam War. North Vietnamese tanks were rolling into Saigon April, 1975. (Please don't explain to me how the Ukraine differs from South Vietnam. The point is about Noble Peace Prizes.)
There is a theory that besides being bored with the war because it is annoying, Trump really wants credit for ending it and a Nobel Peace Prize because Obama got won.
That's very possible, he is a shallow, insecure mess after all.

Would a ceasefire have gotten Biden a Nobel?
I'm not as sure as you are.
It would have a LOT to do with who was seen as the main broker/peacemaker involved.

That the Prize (especially when it is awarded for peace deals and not other matters) is kind of a fucking mess in terms of its connection to reality is absolutely true, of course.
 
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richaceg

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So in short, be brings nothing. Got it.
This is like saying "I want to work" when some one asks you "why should I give you this job".
That's kind of a dumb assessment...
What do you think is gonna happen if someone will not broker a peace deal? there will be no peace... LoL...Zelensky can go find someone he thinks can broker a peace deal...that is if "peace" is what he wants...it seems like his more interested in the billions he will get if the war doesn't stop...Lol...he ain't getting a cent from Drumph...
 
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Valcazar

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Brokering the peace deal is what he brings to the table...why you keep insisting he's "asking for payment" is beyond me...all he wants is a deal..
Yes, all he wants is a deal.
He won't broker the peace without it, according to you.

Now, that would be different from "I want a deal or I will no longer send you weapons" but Trump still being interested in brokering a deal.
 
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Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
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What do you think is gonna happen if someone will not broker a peace deal? there will be no peace..
But you yourself has said Trump has no ability to broker the deal.
He can't promise he can get Putin to the table or to agree to anything, has already said that Putin should get all kinds of concessions, and has said that he can't work with Zelensky.

So pretty clearly no one should be letting Trump broker this deal, since you admit he can't do it. (And, again, he already promised he could do it before January and failed utterly.)

So why should people be paying him for services he can't deliver on?
 
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richaceg

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Yes, all he wants is a deal.
He won't broker the peace without it, according to you.

Now, that would be different from "I want a deal or I will no longer send you weapons" but Trump still being interested in brokering a deal.
Well, if Zelensky wants US backing, it's not for free...Trump is mandated by people to fix the economy and he promised to cut costs...you think it's advisable for him to sign over billions of dollars and not get a deal? C'mon dude...you will be crying here that he's cutting USAID and then turn around and give Ukraine billions...Americans would be pissed if he just gives away tax money without getting a minerals deal...what part of that don't you get?
 
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richaceg

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But you yourself has said Trump has no ability to broker the deal.
He can't promise he can get Putin to the table or to agree to anything, has already said that Putin should get all kinds of concessions, and has said that he can't work with Zelensky.

So pretty clearly no one should be letting Trump broker this deal, since you admit he can't do it. (And, again, he already promised he could do it before January and failed utterly.)

So why should people be paying him for services he can't deliver on?
Where did I say he has no ability to broker a deal? Of all the world leaders right now, who do you think has the ability to sit down with Putin? What I said was there is no guarantee a peace deal would be meet. LoL...so tell me val, is the option fund Ukraine and fight Russia? US is already 175B in on that with abysmal results...keep funding? or have a sit down and see if peace can be achieved? what's your input?
 
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Shaquille Oatmeal

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That's kind of a dumb assessment...
What do you think is gonna happen if someone will not broker a peace deal? there will be no peace... LoL..
Dumb assessment?
That's rich coming from someone who has been making painfully idiotic comments all morning.
To broker a peace deal Trump needs to bring something to the table.
Right now he brings nothing and he is mischaracterizing a protection racket as brokering a peace deal.
Rightfully Zelensky sees right through it and is standing his ground.
 

oil&gas

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Ghawar
If it was just some country being invaded then no country would have funded Ukraine.
Western nations have an interest in Europe and particularly in containing Russia.

After this year do you think we can spend less money on national
defence against Russia than what it would have been without Trudeau's
military aid to Ukraine?
 
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