Trump/Zelensky deal turns into Jerry Springer episode

[Valcazar]

Oh you're taking it literally...here...."of course Trump wants something in return for the US...that will justify funding Ukraine.... he can't face American Voters with a simple..."we're funding to help Ukraine" there has to be a concession why.

Trump has always had the "if we are fighting or if we are involved, someone needs to be paying us" attitude, I agree.
Remember "we should have seized the oil"?

I get that he has that 19th century colonial mindset.

To avoid backlash...Trump has to appease Americans...."we have to help our partners" because that's what will happen when Z signs the minerals deal... Zelensky didn't do shit all...LOL...

Right.
I get that in your view, Americans won't support Ukraine unless they are getting some scratch on the deal. (Well, Trump is, since Trump thinks he is America and so he should be getting a piece of the action.)

You will notice that Zelensky hasn't abandoned the deal, despite Trump's best efforts to tank it entirely.

So what would be your best option? Continue the war? for another tune of $200 USD? will that solve the war? or Sign the deal and see if there's a better option without bloodshed?

The deal has nothing to do with the lack of bloodshed, though.
You've admitted this.

The deal is to show the US is getting money back for the money it put in, right?
So what does that have to do with any end to the war?
None.

I'm not sure why you have so much trouble with that.
Trump promised nothing about ending the war if this deal is signed, as you yourself said.

Unless your argument is now that if Trump doesn't get this deal, he will encourage Putin to attack more?

 

[danmand]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1896629689357070691

National Security Advisor Mike Waltz just laid it out PERFECTLY. WALTZ: The patience of the American people to keep giving BILLIONS with NO end in sight is NOT unlimited. We made that clear to Zelensky. This war needs to end, and that's gonna take concessions on territory, Russian concessions on security guarantees - all sides coming to the table... only President Trump can make this happen.

It is obvious to everybody except the European leaders and Trudeau. The peace agreement will be a worse deal for Ukraine than what they negotiated in 2022.

1,000,000 dead, 5-7,000,000 have left the country. It is rumoured that the male to female ratio is 1 to 18.

 

[richaceg]

So he brings in Russia at the table alone without Ukraine or Europe to have out a one-way peace deal and expect Ukraine to say, YES SIR MY KING, whatever you wish sir. LMFAO, you are unique Ritchie, very unique. LMAO

Is that what you got from my post? my my my...the liberals really want war, but expect US to keep footing the bill, the weaponry and maybe the troops too? LoL...I'm not even sure if Putin will show up for the talks squeezy... Trump is merely brokering this.. If Zelensky is on board, he will probably reach out to Putin, gives him the run down on what Zelensky wants, will ask Putin if it's agreeable or not, maybe seek a counter...all he wants is a minerals deal from Zelensky as broker deal...he will probably ask something from Russia too...

 

[squeezer]

Unless your argument is now that if Trump doesn't get this deal, he will encourage Putin to attack more?

It would not surprise me if there was a private call asking Putin to do exactly this.

 

[richaceg]

Trump has always had the "if we are fighting or if we are involved, someone needs to be paying us" attitude, I agree.
Remember "we should have seized the oil"?

I get that he has that 19th century colonial mindset.



Right.
I get that in your view, Americans won't support Ukraine unless they are getting some scratch on the deal. (Well, Trump is, since Trump thinks he is America and so he should be getting a piece of the action.)

You will notice that Zelensky hasn't abandoned the deal, despite Trump's best efforts to tank it entirely.



The deal has nothing to do with the lack of bloodshed, though.
You've admitted this.

The deal is to show the US is getting money back for the money it put in, right?
So what does that have to do with any end to the war?
None.

I'm not sure why you have so much trouble with that.
Trump promised nothing about ending the war if this deal is signed, as you yourself said.

Unless your argument is now that if Trump doesn't get this deal, he will encourage Putin to attack more?

YOu know why Trump wants something? US spends Trillions and is in debt for Trillions....LoL...that's against efficiency...democrats spent Billions on nonsense...that sesame street in Iran USAID sounds like a good money to help Ukraine now is it?

 

[WyattEarp]

Not really.
It has to have enough that Russia thinks it isn't worth its while to engage in adventurism.
Yes, that means other countries saying they would come in and help defend/fuck shit up.

That just doesn't have to be NATO.
In fact, I expect more and more defence alliances to evolve that aren't NATO as Trump works to dismantle NATO as a cohesive unit.

This seems very vague. Great opportunity to critique Trump again though.

Most people think any cease fire would be a pause to shore up by Russia, followed by another attack.
I do suppose that a pause that includes Putin dying might short circuit that cycle.

Given the drumbeating of the Trump-Russia conspiracy theme, most people would think the pause would at least last through Trump's four year term.

I think a lot of Americans, Ukrainians and even Canadians would welcome the EU stepping up.
Containment ain't pretty.

 

[richaceg]

Unless your argument is now that if Trump doesn't get this deal, he will encourage Putin to attack more?

wait wait wait...I thought y'all liberals believe Trump is Putin's bitch? now he's able to encourage Putin?

 

[Valcazar]

LoL...you're making shit up too?
Trump already told Zelensky...sign the deal, make the US your partner and open a line with Putin..or you just don't like the ring to it because it's coming form Trump...if that came from Obama or Biden...they would be a Nobel Peace Prize candidate...LoL

Why does Zelensky need Trump to open a line to Putin?
Why does Trump need to be paid off to do this?

I mean, sure, if Trump was willing to play tough with Putin and say "we are going to negotiate something and if you fuck up you will face consequences" that might make sense.
But that's... what is it... oh yes, a security guarantee.
Something Trump thinks would be an insult to Putin.

But hey, let's go with something even easier.

Has Putin said he agrees to Trump's terms for a ceasefire?

He told Trump to get stuffed the last time Trump floated anything.

'Truce is a path to nowhere': Russia rejects Trump's calls for a ceasefire in Ukraine

Russia is open to improving relations with the incoming U.S. administration if serious intentions are shown but demands that Washington make the first move. Foreign Minister Lavrov emphasizes the need for a legally binding Ukraine peace deal, dismisses a weak ceasefire, and stresses the security...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Why has Russia rejected Trump’s Ukraine truce plan?

Vladimir Putin and top Russian diplomat Sergey Lavrov have said a deferral in Ukraine's NATO entry won't be enough.

www.aljazeera.com

Since then Trump has just given Putin concession after concession and also said he would negotiate peace without Ukraine.
So if Trump is meeting with Putin and will end the war by talking with him, what does he need Ukraine for?
Ukraine has nothing to do with the peace deal, according to Trump.
Trump can stop this war himself.
In fact, he said he could stop this war if elected without even being inaugurated.

So it is pretty clear that the person keeping this war going now is Trump, because he wants to get paid.

 

[WyattEarp]

LoL...you're making shit up too?
Trump already told Zelensky...sign the deal, make the US your partner and open a line with Putin..or you just don't like the ring to it because it's coming form Trump...if that came from Obama or Biden...they would be a Nobel Peace Prize candidate...LoL

All the alternatives to end the war suck unless you hold out hope that negotiators can get Putin to leave the Ukraine alone long-term.

Yes, I think you're right. Even a Biden peace deal that was only temporary would have won a Nobel Peace Prize. Henry Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1973 for ending the Vietnam War. North Vietnamese tanks were rolling into Saigon April, 1975. (Please don't explain to me how the Ukraine differs from South Vietnam. The point is about Noble Peace Prizes.)

 

[Valcazar]

No they did not.
Russia started the invasion of Ukraine.
That is not a "military consequence".

There weren't specific guarantees in place.
Biden did warn Russia no to invade or there would be reprisals in terms of sanctions or what have you, of course, which did happen.
But among the many issues with Minsk was the lack of any collective defense obligation.

 

[richaceg]

Why does Zelensky need Trump to open a line to Putin?
Why does Trump need to be paid off to do this?

Why was Zelensky in the Whitehouse if h e doesn't need Trump?
Asking for a mineral deal means, Ukraine allowing US company to operate in Ukraine...why do you think this is bad? This is also good for Ukraine...that's a massive investment potential.
You're just being defiant because Trump...

 

[WyattEarp]

It would not surprise me if there was a private call asking Putin to do exactly this.

You mean like picking up a red phone in the Oval Office with a direct link to Putin's office in the Kremlin?

 

[Valcazar]

exactly...sending 175B to Ukraine did not deter Russia...what makes you think another 200B will?

Do you know what deter means?

Russia had already invaded.

Why is Zelensky so hellbent on getting funding? Trump is basically telling him, he will reach out to Putin because the former president failed... you gotta pivot...

So Trump is going to reach out to Putin and stop the war?
Great.
So all we have to do is wait for Trump to do that.
Any further delay is Trump's fault.

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

exactly...sending 175B to Ukraine did not deter Russia...what makes you think another 200B will?
Why is Zelensky so hellbent on getting funding? Trump is basically telling him, he will reach out to Putin because the former president failed... you gotta pivot...

I am not even going to verify the figures you posted here, but....
The 175B decimated Russian forces.
Another 200B will fuck them and could mean a Ukrainian victory.
Let me add that funding Ukraine is not something I advocate for, but just answering your question.
And Zelensky is hellbent on getting funding because his country is being invaded and they are fighting for their sovereignty. There is no better reason.
Of course being the wannabe MAGA loyal quisling that you are, you'd argue that "Trust me bro, Trump will reach out to Putin, lets pivot" makes any sense at all.

 

[Valcazar]

I see what you did there val... NATO funding pie chart and "support for Ukraine" is not the same thing...

OH!

That "70% stake of NATO" thing was not talking about Ukraine at all.
You were saying that the EU should pay for an equal share of NATO?

So one, you are aware that NATO and the EU are not the same thing, right?
And two, you are aware that people don't "pay into NATO" they have defense spending, right?

If NATO dissolves, none of that defense spending just magically goes away.

But hey, you are going to get what you want!
Just about every country on the planet is going to increase its defense spending, since the US has become a dangerous rogue country that can't be trusted.

Just so I'm clear, your argument is "If everyone spent a lot more on weapons, the world would be more peaceful", right?

 

[Valcazar]

National Security Advisor Mike Waltz just laid it out PERFECTLY. WALTZ: The patience of the American people to keep giving BILLIONS with NO end in sight is NOT unlimited. We made that clear to Zelensky. This war needs to end, and that's gonna take concessions on territory, Russian concessions on security guarantees - all sides coming to the table... only President Trump can make this happen.

Wow, so even Trump's surrogates are now agreeing with Zelensky and saying he's right about security guarantees.
Crazy.

 

[Valcazar]

Is that what you got from my post? my my my...the liberals really want war, but expect US to keep footing the bill, the weaponry and maybe the troops too? LoL...I'm not even sure if Putin will show up for the talks squeezy... Trump is merely brokering this.. If Zelensky is on board, he will probably reach out to Putin, gives him the run down on what Zelensky wants, will ask Putin if it's agreeable or not, maybe seek a counter...all he wants is a minerals deal from Zelensky as broker deal...he will probably ask something from Russia too...

But if you acknowledge that Trump brings nothing to the table as a broker, why would someone want to pay him?

 

[Robert Mugabe]

All the alternatives to end the war suck unless you hold out hope that negotiators can get Putin to leave the Ukraine alone long-term.

Yes, I think you're right. Even a Biden peace deal that was only temporary would have won a Nobel Peace Prize. Henry Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1973 for ending the Vietnam War. North Vietnamese tanks were rolling into Saigon April, 1975. (Please don't explain to me how the Ukraine differs from South Vietnam. The point is about Noble Peace Prizes.)

He won the Nobel Prize same year he instigated the overthrow of the Allende democratic government in Chile. Greenlighted the Indonesian invasion of East Timor. Greenlighted the rise of Pol Pot in Cambodia. Responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of people.
The Trial of Henry Kissinger - Wikipedia

 

[Valcazar]

YOu know why Trump wants something? US spends Trillions and is in debt for Trillions....LoL...that's against efficiency...democrats spent Billions on nonsense...that sesame street in Iran USAID sounds like a good money to help Ukraine now is it?

"Fuck you, pay me" is totally Trump.
I get that.

He insists people pay him, he doesn't pay his bills or honor his contracts.

That's the Trump way.

 

[oil&gas]

..................
And Zelensky is hellbent on getting funding because his country is being invaded and they are fighting for their sovereignty. There is no better reason.
............

I think there is better reason for Trudeau not to give away as
much aid as billions of dollars to Zelensky other than the one
you cited. And I am sure majority of world leaders would not
even have to figure out what that reason is as it is so obvious.
You don't have to give away taxpayers' money just because some
country is invaded and its leader is hellbent on getting your money.

Were I in Zelensky's shoes I would be hellbent on getting funding too.
My country was being invaded would only be the secondary reason of it
though. The primary reason would be having a handful of financial
backers among leaders of world's most affluent nations.