Pickering Angels

Trump and Musk Are Destroying the Basics of a Healthy Democracy

Knuckle Ball

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Oct 15, 2017
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Trump and Musk Are Destroying the Basics of a Healthy Democracy
An apolitical bureaucracy run by public servants who respect the law is one of the greatest achievements a society can attain—and these two men have no respect for it.
By Tom NicholsFebruary 5, 2025, 11:46 AM ET
Donald Trump and the exterior of the Theodore Roosevelt Federal Building headquarters of the U.S. Office of Personnel Management

Illustration by The Atlantic. Sources: Kevin Dietsch / Getty; Roberto Schmidt / AFP / Getty.
Produced by ElevenLabs and News Over Audio (Noa) using AI narration. Listen to more stories on the Noa app.


The institutions of the American government are under siege by the president of the United States. Donald Trump claims that he is fulfilling campaign promises to slash the bureaucracy and reduce waste. But what he is in fact doing is weakening potential obstacles—especially the federal civil service—that might stand in the way of his accumulation of wide and unaccountable power.

No one likes bureaucracies, even if they must acknowledge that modern states cannot function without them. But Trump’s contempt for government employees is not driven by some sort of noble, reformist instinct: He distrusts public service because he does not understand it. The president has a solipsistic and binary view of the world in which everything revolves around him, and other people either support him or oppose him. He is unable to comprehend the principle of an apolitical service that must obey the Constitution and the law over the wishes of Donald J. Trump.

In Trump’s world, service—including military service—is for suckers and losers. Only saps forgo personal benefit and miss out on a chunky payday in order to be part of something bigger than themselves. The president and his MAGA allies, accordingly, have portrayed diligent government employees as schemers who are part of some nefarious ideological project. In a titanic act of projection, Trump has convinced millions of Americans that their fellow citizens are scammers just out for themselves.

I retired from the federal workforce in 2022 with more than 25 years of service in the Defense Department and on the staff of the U.S. Senate. I agree that plenty of agencies and deadwood employees should go gently into that good night, and sooner rather than later. But folding up federal agencies and firing their employees is a complicated business, requiring a scalpel rather than a sledgehammer. Only someone with profound hubris would be willing to make such changes in a matter of weeks (especially if they lack any experience in the public sector), which may explain why Trump tapped Elon Musk for the job.

Read: Elon Musk is president

Trump’s project began with an executive order empowering DOGE, the so-called Department of Government Efficiency, to “implement the President’s DOGE Agenda, by modernizing Federal technology and software to maximize governmental efficiency and productivity.” This is stilted hooey, but in any case, the unelected, unconfirmed, and unaccountable Musk took up the cause with gusto, barging into government offices, attempting to access classified facilities, and seizing control of information assets such as the Treasury’s payments system.

Some of this is constitutionally sketchy and probably illegal, as my colleague Jonathan Chait wrote yesterday. Some government employees may, of course, one day prevail in civil lawsuits, but with Trump now in control of the Justice Department and immunized for “official acts” by the Supreme Court, no one in his administration is going to stop him or Musk at this point.

Musk’s role in Trump’s efforts creates significant conflicts of interest. (He is a government contractor, after all.) His motives are somewhat opaque but likely come from both practical and ideological interests, especially because these days he sounds like a late-night caller to a MAGA talk-radio program. (The U.S. Agency for International Development, he posted on X, was “a viper’s nest of radical-left marxists who hate America.”) And if Musk can seize control of the federal payments system—as he seems to be in the process of doing—perhaps he thinks he is a step closer to fulfilling his dream of replacing the national financial system with some galactic payment app that handles everything.

But, like Trump, Musk also appears to just detest people who work in public service. Both men resent government agencies for two important reasons: They do not own these public institutions, and the employees do not instantly obey their orders.

Federal employees answer to their departments and to the president, but within the constraints of the law and the Constitution. Trump’s supporters will argue that the machinery of the federal government should, in fact, answer directly and completely to the president, but they’re trying to revive a settled argument:America already had the debate over cronyism and the spoils system in the 19th and 20th centuries, which is why the United States has laws specifically meant to prevent the abuse of public institutions for personal or political gain, including the Pendleton Act of 1883, the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978, and various iterations of the Hatch Act.

Indeed, even this administration seems to realize that what it’s asking is completely alien to the modern American credo of professional and apolitical national service. Trump has resurrected an order he issued back in 2020 (which was immediately rescinded by Joe Biden) with some careful edits. But the new language about “accountability” does not change the fact that Trump’s order reclassifies many civil servants as functionally equivalent to political appointees, removing their civil-service protections and making them fireable at will by the president. In other words, Trump is redefining public servants as presidential servants.

Trump learned the hard way during his first term that bureaucrats and other federal employees, with their pesky insistence on outdated concepts such as “the rule of law,” could be a consistent obstacle to his various machinations. When Trump tried to strong-arm the Ukrainians into investigating Biden by withholding U.S. aid, for example, federal whistleblowers sounded the alarm. Other federal agencies and appointees—including leaders of the United States military—were impediments to Trump’s most dangerous and unconstitutional impulses.

From the November 2023 issue: The patriot

The president appears to have learned his lesson. This time, he has prepared the ground for his attack on government institutions by demonizing the people who work in them at almost every level. He may not be able to disestablish entire organizations (although he might well try), but even short of that, he can make their employees so hated by the rest of the country that they can be terrorized into obedience or resignation. Trump’s campaign against the civil service, as one manager working in the federal government told NBC News, is “psychological warfare” on a daily basis.

Trump’s suspicion of the government he leads is also why he has sent shockingly unqualified nominees to head the Defense Department, the FBI, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, and other agencies. Think of it as a kind of political pincer attack: At the top, Trump decapitates important organizations and removes their professional staff. He replaces them with people who do not know or care about what they’re doing other than carrying out Trump’s orders. At the bottom, Musk and the president’s new hires at the Office of Personnel Management ensure that whoever is left is either a loyalist who will support such orders or someone too scared to object to them.

President Trump regards people who take their constitutional oath seriously as, by definition, his political enemies. If he is going to rule as the autocrat he wishes to be, he knows he must replace career civil servants with flunkies and vassals who will serve him and his needs above all else. His attack on public service is not about reform; it’s a first strike against a key obstacle to authoritarianism.




The fascist takeover of the US continues; many embrace it.
☹
 

mellowjello

Well-known member
Jan 11, 2017
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The basics of a healthy democracy were destroyed before these guys showed up, they're just a symptom.
Do you think a healthy democracy would have given you Trump and Biden as it's best options?
As bad as Trump is, he reflects a majority of people who have given up on a system that completely ignores the will of the people.
 

speakercontrols

Well-known member
Aug 26, 2023
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"Do you think a healthy democracy would have given you Trump and Biden as it's best options? "

He does make a good point. The US (and Canada to an extent) has degenerated into a Gerontocracy, for the old and solely for the benefit of the old.

We're so fucking over our kids.
 

southpaw

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May 21, 2002
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An apolitical bureaucracy? Good one!
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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President Trump regards people who take their constitutional oath seriously as, by definition, his political enemies. If he is going to rule as the autocrat he wishes to be, he knows he must replace career civil servants with flunkies and vassals who will serve him and his needs above all else. His attack on public service is not about reform; it’s a first strike against a key obstacle to authoritarianism.
He hasn't been shy about it.
The three major factions in the Trump coalition all want an end to civil structure and accountability.
What they want after differs.
(And there are groups, like some of the more typical Republican members of congress, who want a bunch of things done that are hard and take long under democratic procedure, so they want them done illegally and then expect to just have their old powers handed back to them by the autocrats. These people are just idiots.)
 

Lenny59

Well-known member
May 25, 2023
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People voted for it. Democracy in action. Only those sucking on the teats of the old corrupt order (the Biden family, USAID and many more) are crying foul.
 
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Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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People voted for it. Democracy in action. Only those sucking on the teats of the old corrupt order (the Biden family, USAID and many more) are crying foul.
That is the legitimate question.
Did people actually vote for this?
After all, Trump insisted he didn't know anything about Project 2025 and yet here he is implementing it.
No one voted for Musk.
There may be some people who voted for the idea of DOGE, some vague talk of Musk being in charge of government efficiency goes back to the summer. (August, I think.)
But did they vote for "Musk takes over the payment system and starts coding things secretly"?

Maybe they did!
It may be that the people who voted for Trump are all in on all this.

Or. It might not.

We've already seen people come forward and say Trump is doing stuff they didn't vote for when they voted for him, so I guess we shall see what people think of all this.
 

wigglee

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Oct 13, 2010
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People voted for it. Democracy in action. Only those sucking on the teats of the old corrupt order (the Biden family, USAID and many more) are crying foul.
But when they didn't vote for it, Trump lied and tried to cheat and riot his way to holding power in 2020. He never said a word about annexing Canada or turning Gaza into the "Riviera" during the 2024 campaign. And how did that 50 million for Hamas condoms become 100 million? America has gone totally insane if they believe anything he says.
 

Knuckle Ball

Well-known member
Oct 15, 2017
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That is the legitimate question.
Did people actually vote for this?
After all, Trump insisted he didn't know anything about Project 2025 and yet here he is implementing it.
No one voted for Musk.
There may be some people who voted for the idea of DOGE, some vague talk of Musk being in charge of government efficiency goes back to the summer. (August, I think.)
But did they vote for "Musk takes over the payment system and starts coding things secretly"?

Maybe they did!
It may be that the people who voted for Trump are all in on all this.

Or. It might not.

We've already seen people come forward and say Trump is doing stuff they didn't vote for when they voted for him, so I guess we shall see what people think of all this.
They may not have voted for it but if Trump Supporters on terb are any indication it seems like they are retroactively fine with anything Trump does whether they voted for it or not.
 
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Butler1000

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Oct 31, 2011
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That is the legitimate question.
Did people actually vote for this?
After all, Trump insisted he didn't know anything about Project 2025 and yet here he is implementing it.
No one voted for Musk.
There may be some people who voted for the idea of DOGE, some vague talk of Musk being in charge of government efficiency goes back to the summer. (August, I think.)
But did they vote for "Musk takes over the payment system and starts coding things secretly"?

Maybe they did!
It may be that the people who voted for Trump are all in on all this.

Or. It might not.

We've already seen people come forward and say Trump is doing stuff they didn't vote for when they voted for him, so I guess we shall see what people think of all this.
I think they did. I think they wanted a bull in a China shop approach to shake the govt and see what falls out. That is how desperate they are for change.

And it's going to get worse. The power brokers are not going to go quickly or quietly. There will be so many court battles, donors will get involved. The narrow congress is going to come into play. Institutions will find themselves accountable. Graft will be be exposed.

It's going to get ugly.
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
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They may not have voted for it but if Trump Supporters on terb are any indication it seems like they are retroactively fine with anything Trump does whether they voted for it or not.
is it impossible for you to comprehend some people may approve / like some of his actions while disapprove / not like other actions ?
shrink the size of government, drive efficiency and root out govt corruption: good idea
apply tariffs and undermine allies : bad idea

some may like his policies, while finding his personality abrasive / disgusting
some may take the approach, let him have a go at it as the traditional approach is not working
others may be Ok with some / all of what he is doing , but may be concerned he might make a mess
one concern is for very action there is a reaction and the ping ponging from left to right to left etc. will eventually degrade into chaos

have you ever heard of the swing vote ?
 

jalimon

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2016
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Trump and his team are not about consensus, which is the base of democracy. They want to win at all costs. In other words, they do not give a fuck about democracy. Hence, Trump never acknowledged his loss in 2020. Trump is a psychopath.

America deserves the worldwide decline they are and still will be experiencing over the next 10 years or so.

America is a dump. Asia is a much safer and better place to live right now. They will prevail for the next 100 years or so.
 

RZG

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2007
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"Do you think a healthy democracy would have given you Trump and Biden as it's best options? "

He does make a good point. The US (and Canada to an extent) has degenerated into a Gerontocracy, for the old and solely for the benefit of the old.

We're so fucking over our kids.
Yeah pretty much. Tariffs being threatened had little to do with drugs or illegal invaders, it`s all about insider trading, making huge money for the politicians super wealthy and powerful friends, manipulating markets. And they`re all old. Trump may be many things, boorish asshole, loudmouth etc., but stupid isn`t one of them. And Trudeau and company going for a trade war will result in Canada getting flattened, had they done their actual job the last near decade much of this was avoidable.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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They may not have voted for it but if Trump Supporters on terb are any indication it seems like they are retroactively fine with anything Trump does whether they voted for it or not.
To be fair to them, lots of people retroactively decide they are fine with things they didn't explicitly vote for.
That isn't just limited to Trump supporters (even if they often display this behavior to a more outlandish degree).
 

mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
78,043
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The basics of a healthy democracy were destroyed before these guys showed up, they're just a symptom.
Do you think a healthy democracy would have given you Trump and Biden as it's best options?
As bad as Trump is, he reflects a majority of people who have given up on a system that completely ignores the will of the people.
The will of the people is apparently that they hate immigrants and LGBQ's.

So any system that doesn't put lesbians in jail - or at least fire them from jobs - or allow immigrants in when Western birth rates are now well below replacement levels "completely ignores the will of the people". 😯
 
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danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
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Trump and his team are not about consensus, which is the base of democracy. They want to win at all costs. In other words, they do not give a fuck about democracy. Hence, Trump never acknowledged his loss in 2020. Trump is a psychopath.

America deserves the worldwide decline they are and still will be experiencing over the next 10 years or so.

America is a dump. Asia is a much safer and better place to live right now. They will prevail for the next 100 years or so.
The seeds for the destruction is the $37T spent on military madness. China spent the same amount of money on infrastructure and on lifting it's people out of poverty.

That is why USA is in decline and China is in ascent.
 
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